page 1 1 Wednesday, 21st October 2009 2 (10.05 am) 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before we begin, it may be relevant to 4 matters raised during the course of the forthcoming 5 witness's evidence. 6 On Thursday 15th October of this year when Mr McKie 7 was giving evidence, the question of the IAI arose and 8 complaints to it. He said, and I am quoting from a 9 document that has been sent in: 10 "I do believe that I've been in contact with the IAI 11 over time perhaps verbally and perhaps in one letter 12 asking them to examine this whole issue but I've had no 13 part and no knowledge of any IAI committees coming up." 14 At the end of his evidence I asked him to submit any 15 available documentation to me and in particular the 16 letter he had referred to. He now says that he has 17 checked his records and finds that he has no 18 correspondence or other records of communication with 19 the IAI in relation to their Y7 investigation and he is 20 satisfied he had no such direct contact or prior 21 knowledge of their plans. 22 He then hands other correspondence which did not 23 relate to Mr Swann at all. I just mention that and it 24 will be put on the system so that others can see the 25 full nature of what has been sent in to the Inquiry. page 2 1 Are we ready to begin Mr Swann's evidence? 2 MR MOYNIHAN: Sir, just before Mr Swann, I had started a 3 conversation with Mr Russell in relation to this matter 4 and indeed I have had a conversation with Mr Smith. I 5 have a document I need to look at before I resume those 6 conversations in the light of what you have just said so 7 there would otherwise seem to be an element of mismatch. 8 What I have suggested is I will have further 9 conversations I think at the mid-morning break. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: That is perfectly all right. All I wanted to 11 be clear is we are recording the fact that Mr McKie had 12 responded to my request and that was the result. 13 MR MOYNIHAN: So the next witness is Mr Swann, who is 14 present. 15 PETER MALCOLM SWANN, sworn 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Your full names are Peter ...? 17 A. Malcolm Swann. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Please take a seat, Mr Swann. 19 Examined by MR MOYNIHAN 20 Q. Good morning, Mr Swann. 21 A. Good morning, Mr Moynihan. 22 Q. You have provided the Inquiry with a statement and you 23 have a copy of your statement with you? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. For my purposes the Inquiry reference is FI0149.04. page 3 1 That should be a document reference number. 2 This is a statement that you have had the 3 opportunity to prepare in consultation with your 4 solicitor, Mr Russell? 5 A. That's correct, sir, yes. 6 Q. Are you content that the statement you have provided is, 7 to the best of your recollection, a true account? 8 A. It is. 9 Q. What I will do, Mr Swann, is simply pick up some 10 passages within it and otherwise we will be taking this 11 as read. Please feel free, if there is any point within 12 what we are reading you wish to change, to simply 13 indicate that there is a matter that requires to be 14 changed. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. What I want to do is simply to begin by understanding 17 the material you have had available to you over a period 18 of time and, indeed, the particular images that you 19 relied on at various points when you were expressing 20 your opinion. 21 Before we do so, we will come to this ultimately, I 22 understand that you have brought with you some originals 23 of some charting material that has now been put on the 24 stand to your left? 25 A. Yes. page 4 1 Q. These are the originals of material that are in some 2 booklets that have been made available for others? 3 A. That's correct, yes. 4 Q. What I will do a little later is I will have to have a 5 conversation about retaining, at least temporarily, the 6 originals so that the Chairman can in due course study 7 those but that is something we can discuss a little 8 later. 9 A. Right. 10 Q. What I want to do is within your statement to begin at 11 paragraph 10, please. What I have actually done is 12 skipped over an initial involvement that you had in 1998 13 when you were first instructed in a meeting that took 14 place in Wakefield and I am now coming to the period 15 when you were involved immediately prior to the trial of 16 Ms McKie. 17 A. Right. 18 Q. I am looking at meetings or events that culminate in 19 your report in March 1999, your two reports in fact. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. It begins in paragraph 10 with 22nd February 1999 and 22 you say that Angela McCracken, a solicitor in 23 Levy & McRae, an wrote to you and confirmed arrangements 24 for you to attend Glasgow on Tuesday 2nd March 1999 in 25 order to undertake expert inspection of the Crown page 5 1 exhibits. The meeting was to be at 2.00. 2 You then say: 3 "On 22nd February Mrs McCracken of Levy & McRae 4 wrote to me confirming the arrangements for expert 5 inspection of the Crown exhibits in Glasgow on 6 2nd March." 7 You were notified that you would also be meeting 8 with Senior Counsel at 2.00 pm that day. 9 "On 26th February Mrs McCracken forwarded to me an 10 airline ticket ...", and this is the part I am really 11 interested in, "... together with copy productions and 12 photographs apparently obtained from the Procurator 13 Fiscal's Offices." 14 You undertook exhaustive examination of the material 15 provided to you by Ms McKie's solicitors, Levy & McRae. 16 You recall one particular chart of the disputed mark Y7 17 which was not too clear and probably a second or third 18 generation copy. 19 In your examination of that chart you identified 16 20 ridge characteristics which were in agreement. You also 21 recall examining the material provided on alternate 22 days. In the event, you were satisfied that it was a 23 positive identification. 24 I have read the full paragraph. We will come just 25 slightly later to the fact -- in fact, it is page 6 1 paragraph 11 we see that on 2nd March you did indeed 2 attend the High Court in Glasgow; is that correct? 3 A. Yes, in Glasgow, yes. 4 Q. You saw, among other things, the doorframe itself with 5 the mark Y7 on it? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You would have seen originals of the Crown productions, 8 the prosecution productions, on 2nd March? 9 A. I saw the door standard and on a desk was a very, very 10 small used photograph because it was bent where they had 11 bent it to do the comparison work and a copy of the 12 fingerprint form. That's all. 13 Q. What I want to do, therefore, is to look at what 14 preceded that visit on 2nd March. If I understand it 15 correctly what you are indicating is that in February 16 the solicitor sent to you copies -- and by that I mean 17 photocopies -- of material. Would that be correct? 18 A. They did send me package. I'm not quite certain of the 19 date. I thought it was a bit before then actually, but 20 not to worry, a package did arrive and I was asked to 21 concentrate on a particular exhibit within that package 22 as opposed to -- it was quite a bundle, actually. If 23 you ask me what was in the bundle I'm afraid I'm not 24 going to be able to tell you because I can't remember 25 but certainly I homed in on what they asked me to page 7 1 compare, which was a comparison chart copy. 2 Q. So it was a comparison chart? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. As you recollect was that something you are describing 5 here as something that was a second or third generation 6 item? 7 A. It may well have been; I don't know. It wasn't a 8 particularly clear copy. It may have been a copy of a 9 copy, I don't know. But you could see it, don't get me 10 wrong, you could see it all right but I've seen clearer. 11 Q. You say here that you worked on that material, it says, 12 on alternate days. What do you mean by that? 13 A. Well, I did my first comparison shall we say on the 14 Monday and spent whatever time was necessary to see what 15 I wanted to see and to work out, et cetera. I left it 16 on Tuesday, did it again on the Wednesday, left it on 17 the Thursday, again on the Friday to make sure, sort of, 18 like a triple check, if you like, because working 19 independently you have no-one to sat at the side of you 20 to say, "Have a look at that for me, check me". You are 21 working on your own so to alleviate that I tend to do 22 this triple check on -- if need be, not always but if 23 need be. 24 Q. Would I be reading too much into the final sentence in 25 paragraph 10 by saying you have formed an opinion on Y7 page 8 1 at that point by reference to this material you had been 2 sent in the package? 3 A. Yes, correct. 4 Q. So you had formed that opinion by that time? 5 A. Yes, yes. 6 Q. Was there any hesitation on your part because the 7 material that you were seeing, at least some of it may 8 have been second or third generation copies? 9 A. No, no doubt about that at all. 10 Q. Why was that when you were looking at what you describe 11 as chartings that were not clear and probably second or 12 third generation? 13 A. Often fingerprints you have to look at are not clear. 14 They are not all crystal clear and stand out very, very 15 clear indeed. Some are fuzzy, some are phased, some are 16 dirty, grubby, smudged, you name it. You get used to 17 working with what material you have and this was a copy 18 of a chart. You could see it but all I'm saying is it 19 was a sort of matt finish, grey, dull reproduction and 20 you had to take your time with it, which I did. 21 Q. If I then move on to 2nd March, that was paragraph 11, I 22 think we have already covered this, but what you saw 23 was, as you have described it, a small photograph, an 24 original photograph, as you say bent, it had obviously 25 been in use? page 9 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you also see at that stage an original inked 3 fingerprint form? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So -- 6 A. Well, from memory, yes, yes. 7 Q. Please, I don't wish to press you. I am conscious it is 8 12 years ago so if it is only your memory just indicate. 9 So on 2nd March it would seem, from your recollection, 10 that you were now looking at first generation original 11 material, you are looking obviously at the very first 12 generation, you are looking at the fingerprint on the 13 door post? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You are looking at what bears to be an original 16 photograph of that mark? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you compared the photograph with the doorframe and 19 you were satisfied that the photograph was an accurate 20 reproduction of the mark? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And you had an inked original set of fingerprints? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Looking now at that material, you were able to confirm 25 your opinion relative to this original material? page 10 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Is that correct? 3 A. (Nodded) 4 Q. Plainly that day you indicate that you told Mr Findlay 5 (that is Ms McKie's counsel) that that was your opinion? 6 A. Indeed, yes. 7 Q. You do cover in your statement the subject matter you 8 were being consulted on. It would be fair to say that 9 what Mr McKie will accept is that at that point (that is 10 the beginning of March), he was still thinking primarily 11 that fingerprint evidence was, one could use the term 12 infallible and he was, therefore, primarily considering 13 some alternative explanation for his daughter's mark 14 being on that doorframe, hence thinking in terms of 15 forgery, fabrication, transplantation or something of 16 that description. 17 You were being asked to advise in relation to those 18 alternatives; is that fair? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. However, do I take it that, as you have described 21 particularly by your alternate work with the original 22 material that you had, that you were giving due 23 consideration to the first question, namely whether it 24 was Ms McKie's mark or not? 25 A. I was giving due consideration to that, yes, certainly, page 11 1 yes. Obviously in my mind I'd seen the comparison chart 2 which I sent back. I didn't keep a copy of it. I sent 3 it back in total with the bundle but I knew as soon as I 4 saw the mark on the door standard, confirmed that it was 5 the same as the mark in the photograph, that I was 6 obviously looking at the same mark and then comparing 7 those with the fingerprint form that's -- yes, it 8 followed from there. 9 Q. That's fine. After the -- 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, would it be possible to move the video 11 screen slightly round? It's very difficult for me -- no 12 the other way. It's just following what Mr Swann is 13 saying it's sometimes helpful if I can actually see him. 14 That is much better. Thank you very much. 15 MR MOYNIHAN: Mr Swann, I am going to have provided to you 16 the originals of a set of blue fingerprints which for us 17 can be brought up on the screen as TS0010. (Handed) 18 You have in your hand the original sheet of paper 19 with blue inked fingerprints. 20 A. Correct, yes. 21 Q. I understand that these were sent to you by Levy & McRae 22 following the meeting with Mr Findlay? 23 A. I believe so, yes. 24 Q. I understand from a conversation with you you don't 25 actually know who took these fingerprints? page 12 1 A. No, I don't. 2 Q. So we know that they were sent to you by Levy & McRae. 3 At that point at the meeting with Mr Findlay, you still 4 had to complete the process of writing, as it turned 5 out, two reports? 6 A. Sorry, could you repeat that? 7 Q. I apologise. 8 After the meeting with Mr Findlay you still had to 9 complete written reports in relation to your work? 10 A. Yes, correct, yes. 11 Q. In the event, you wrote two reports because after the 12 meeting you received a letter, sent through 13 Levy & McRae, that was in the name of Ms McKie asking a 14 number of specific questions? 15 A. Correct, yes. 16 Q. Without going into the detail of the questions asked in 17 your reports, I was just wondering when it came to your 18 reports had you studied the blue inked fingerprints or 19 did your reports reflect the material that you had 20 studied in February and on 2nd March? 21 A. My reports reflected the work I'd done at the Judiciary 22 Building and previously because when I received these -- 23 when I left Glasgow nobody would supply me with 24 anything. I didn't get a copy of the make, a copy of 25 the fingerprint form, a copy of anything. All I got was page 13 1 the sketch I made of the door standard. So when these 2 came, in a sense, they were useless because I had 3 nothing to compare them with -- well, nothing to compare 4 with at the time. 5 Q. That is fine and we will come back to that later. So, 6 in a sense, if I can understand this, when you received 7 the blue inked originals you in fact had only been given 8 half the story, in a sense. You had fingerprint forms 9 to compare but no copy of the mark to compare them 10 against? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. So we should understand your reports, therefore, in the 13 middle of March reflect the earlier material that you 14 had available to you and not these blue inked originals? 15 A. The original material and my work at the Justiciary 16 Building. 17 Q. If I then move on from there in a point of sequence. If 18 I could also have shown to you, please, some photographs 19 from Mr Kent's file. What I am going to ask that you be 20 shown are the originals of a series of photographs but 21 for us if I could bring up HO0104. (Handed) 22 You do mention in your statement that you did, indeed, 23 have contact with Mr Kent. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What I have given to you from Mr Kent's Home Office file page 14 1 are three photographs that, having received your 2 chartings that we're about to look at, he seems to have 3 photographed indeed the envelope and then there are two 4 other photographs, one with the compliment slip 5 uppermost and then the final one which I have brought up 6 on the screen is the one the reverse of the compliment 7 slip; do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you recollect yourself the circumstances in which you 10 were in contact with Mr Kent? 11 A. Not really, no. I mean, he was somebody I had worked 12 with for three years in the mid-'80s when I worked down 13 at the Home Office but the contact I had with him was 14 that it became known to me that he'd photographed the 15 mark on the door standard and, obviously, a set of 16 fingerprints, nothing to compare it with, so I was 17 anxious to find a copy of Y7 so I rang Terry Kent and 18 said could he send me a copy of his negative, which he 19 did. 20 Q. He sent you a copy of his negative? 21 A. No, no, a copy -- he photographed it for me. He did a 22 print from the negative and he sent me an enlargement. 23 Q. So what you then use on this image that I have brought 24 up (which is HO0104) is, do I take it that the left-hand 25 image is Mr Kent's image sent to you? page 15 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. On the right-hand side is obviously a print of Ms McKie 3 and is that one of the blue originals, do you know? 4 A. It is, yes. It's the third one on. 5 Q. If you give me just a second, if we go back then to the 6 blue inked originals, just for the record, the other one 7 is HO0104? 8 A. I'm saying it's the third one on. It's difficult to 9 tell to be quite honest but of the three it certainly 10 isn't number 2 counted from the left. I think it's 11 number 3. 12 Q. Sorry, Mr Swann, I can hear you but in fact others in 13 the hall are having some difficulty hearing you. What 14 we find is the microphones are not very sensitive so 15 they need to be placed, as you can with me, rather 16 uncomfortably close so maybe if we just adjust whatever 17 is on your desk so the microphone is -- it may even need 18 to be swung round so it is out of the way. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. We will see how that proceeds. 21 What we are looking at then is, we have brought it 22 up, that the mark in the bottom, that is in the 23 photograph, you think is an inked original from the top 24 and you think it's the third one from the left? 25 A. Correct, yes. page 16 1 Q. So what I will try to do, just for posterity, is I will 2 put an arrow to the one that you think it is. 3 (Indicated) 4 A. Yes, that's it. 5 Q. Again, even for me looking at it one of the features of 6 this inked plane is they have a cone-like. They are not 7 a full, rounded mark? 8 A. That's correct, yes. 9 Q. So it would seem that the Terry Kent -- if I can call it 10 that -- charting is done by reference to one of these, 11 probably the one I've highlighted? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So if we could save that image for today, please. 14 What I will do is bring up on its own the -- 15 MISS BAHRAMI: That's save as FI2110.01. 16 MR MOYNIHAN: What I will do is bring up the Terry Kent 17 original on it's own, which is HO0104. Please feel free 18 to use the photographic original you have there, if you 19 prefer. 20 What I want to do is rotate the image clockwise, 21 please, because I want to just check the date. This 22 with compliment slip bears a date, we can check it 23 against the franking on the envelope, in fact, but it 24 seems to be, is it, 5th July 1999? 25 A. Yes. page 17 1 Q. So that assists us in knowing that as at 5th 2 July 1999 -- so this would be a period immediately after 3 the trial -- you are carrying out, in fact, a comparison 4 of a Terry Kent image and the blue inked original that 5 we have seen? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. I want to just carry on with the narrative and then we 8 will come back. 9 In your statement to the Inquiry, which is 10 FI0149.04, I am going look at paragraph 19 of your 11 statement. It suffices that we bring up this particular 12 page. 13 You are referring to a meeting that you had with the 14 officers from Tayside so that this would now be into the 15 second half of 2000 and you say: 16 "At the time of making my statement to the Tayside 17 Police, I had still not resolved one issue which 18 concerned certain characteristics at the top of the 19 crime scene mark." 20 Do you see that? 21 A. Not yet, no. 22 Q. Paragraph 19. I will highlight it for you. 23 A. Yes, I've got that, sorry. 24 Q. "At the time of making my statement to the Tayside 25 Police, I had still not resolved one issue which page 18 1 concerned certain characteristics at the top of the 2 crime scene mark." 3 So, if we take it very broadly, the Tayside meeting 4 is in the second half of 2000 -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. At the time you met then you had not resolved this 7 question of certain characteristics in the top of the 8 mark; is that correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. If I understand it correctly, the next key development 11 relates, in fact, to Mr Berry, is it, and is it the 12 publication of a copy of Y7 in the Daily Mail? Is that 13 the next stage? 14 A. Possibly. 15 Q. If I bring up, just so that we have the date, TS0008. 16 If I move to the next page, you have, in fact, supplied 17 us with the original of the Daily Mail article so you 18 may want to just have a look at that for your own 19 convenience. (Handed) 20 This is the image in the Daily Mail that Mr Berry 21 comes to use in understanding the top part of the mark; 22 is that correct or do you not know? 23 A. Sorry, could you repeat that? 24 Q. Is this the image that Mr Berry comes to use when he 25 resolves what has occurred, in his judgment, in the top page 19 1 part of the mark? 2 A. It's not the top half of the mark I'm referring to. 3 This resolves Mr Berry's issue in locating what he calls 4 his Rosetta characteristic. 5 Q. That's fair enough. 6 A. But it doesn't resolve the issue of the marks at the 7 tip -- not on here. 8 Q. The date of this then is -- and it is just simply to get 9 a date -- 24th October 2000 is the date. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. If I move to the next item just to give you a date, and 12 that is Mr Gilchrist's report. It is CO0003 and I move 13 to page 17. I will highlight a paragraph for you on 14 page 17. 15 Just so that we have the date, Mr Gilchrist you met 16 in June 2001 in London? 17 A. I did, yes. 18 Q. So Mr Gilchrist records you on this passage as saying 19 that you were instructed by the defence; you discounted 20 the top two-thirds of the mark; you now believe the top 21 portion of the mark was made by the thumb having been 22 twisted round by about 60 degrees. 23 We will look at whether that's accurate or not just 24 in a moment but it would seem, therefore, that by 25 June 2001 you had, to your satisfaction, resolved this page 20 1 question about the characteristics in the mark; is that 2 fair? 3 A. Yes. Yes, I had. What it was when I met Mr Gilchrist, 4 he produced to me an exhibit used in the court case, 5 produced by Mr Wertheim, an enlargement of mark Y7 with 6 a piece of acetate sheet coming over the top and a piece 7 coming over from the left-hand side and he had marked 8 characteristics on the tip of Y7 quite clearly which 9 were clear to see, but he said they weren't on Shirley 10 McKie's left thumbprint. Of course they weren't on the 11 one he was looking at, on a plain impression. 12 Apparently, he's never looked at a rolled impression, as 13 far as I'm aware. 14 I explained to Mr Gilchrist by meaning of producing 15 a chart for him to see where these characteristics were 16 using left thumb on the blue ones here (indicated). 17 Q. I suppose that's a very helpful explanation we have back 18 in our safe hands today that very item that you have, 19 which is defence production number 2. Oh we don't have 20 it. 21 Yes, we do ... (Handed) 22 Mr Swann, if I may assist, this is defence 23 production number 2. That is the document. It is 24 Mr Wertheim's original document with the acetates. You 25 will probably not have seen it since June 2001 yourself. page 21 1 A. It doesn't look like the one that I saw, to be quite 2 honest. It doesn't. 3 Q. You may have seen another copy of the same item. 4 A. This was just a single piece of card or what have you, 5 the actual enlargement itself, with one coming over the 6 top and nothing here coming over the top and one coming 7 from the side and ... no, this isn't the one I saw, 8 definitely not. 9 Q. If I bring up so we can all see a copy of what you have, 10 it is DB0172H. We will just scroll through it. It's 11 got at the bottom -- if you want to just -- if you can 12 look at the original so you can be happy with the 13 original, it begins with a copy of a mark of Ms McKie; 14 is that correct? 15 A. Inked left thumbprint of Shirley McKie, it says. 16 Q. Yes, there is a photograph. We have brought that up as 17 digital page 2. 18 If we then progress through the image, do we see 19 that, in fact, for you you would put one of the acetates 20 on top to demonstrate some chartings relative to that 21 and it just so happens that what Mr Wertheim is trying 22 to do here is to recreate the points that the Scottish 23 Criminal Record Office were relying on. So this is not 24 part of the puzzle at the top part of the mark. 25 We will then proceed beyond that to the next, which page 22 1 is another acetate. He starts, again it's just layered 2 on the acetates, by drawing in some of the ridges. He 3 has now put in some blue circles, again, some points 4 that he would have discussed, you and I need not 5 discuss. If we then proceed to next, he has a copy of 6 the mark Y7 and you will have the original of this in 7 front of you. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. It is one you will recognise as having the striation 10 across the lower part so it's a Mr Wertheim photograph. 11 If we then proceed through that side, again, he has, 12 firstly, attempted to recreate on his image the position 13 of the SCRO chartings from a criminal trial production. 14 Then we move on. He has attempted on that mark to 15 do some ridge charting. 16 The next one. This is where it becomes quite -- 17 it's faint on our copy and you may want to just use the 18 original because if you take the original that you have 19 before you, you will find that it has an acetate on it 20 that's over the mark Y7 which has green circles. 21 Do you see that? 22 A. Yes, yes. 23 Q. So you have an acetate with green circles and, in fact, 24 if I point the cursor without having to mark them 25 (indicated) there will be one green circle where I have page 23 1 indicated and there is at least two, three, four -- at 2 least four green circles there. Is that correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. If you will bear with me, Mr Swann, if I look at the 5 first green circle, I will highlight by an arrow and 6 make it green to avoid the red lines there (indicated). 7 The first green circle I have indicated by the first 8 green arrow. Is that identifying what we now have come, 9 courtesy of Mr Berry, to refer to as the Rosetta 10 characteristic? 11 A. Correct, it is, yes. 12 Q. So perhaps if we could insert a text simply as a number 13 1 to fit into the transcript of the day, that is the 14 Rosetta. 15 There are then the three other green circles above 16 and to the right that are marked. Do I understand you 17 to say that these are the features that you were 18 understanding that had been raised as doubts that you 19 were trying to understand? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. By the date of your meeting with Mr Gilchrist, you had 22 obtained an explanation for these characteristics? 23 A. Yes. Well, we found them on the rolled impression. 24 Perhaps we should have found them earlier, I don't know, 25 but we found them eventually. page 24 1 Q. I am grateful to you because that has enabled me to 2 separate out two different issues then. The first one 3 is -- and are they different issues, the Rosetta on the 4 one hand and these three other points on the other? 5 A. Well, I would say -- sorry, I would say they were 6 separate issues because it's difficult to count between 7 the Rosetta mark there and the tip of the thumb. You 8 can count downwards to the centre core but you can't go 9 upwards because of the smudging, the pressure and what 10 have you that's been applied. 11 Q. I am grateful to you because that does assist me, so if 12 I save this particular image ... 13 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.02. 14 MR MOYNIHAN: I will not take it down just yet in case we 15 need to look at it. 16 When it comes you explaining the features, the other 17 three green circles -- that is the points at the tip -- 18 I understand that you refer to a rolled impression in 19 relation to those features; is that correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Again, just concluding this particular chapter, which is 22 looking at the source materials, when you are referring 23 to a rolled impression are you referring to the blue 24 inked rolled impressions that you had rather than any 25 other source of fingerprint mark? page 25 1 A. I've solely used the rolled blue impressions on this 2 form here. 3 Q. So if, again, if I bring up just for clarity TS0010, it 4 is rather bright on the screen but you have the original 5 with you just now. 6 If I understand it correctly, you are looking to the 7 print which is on the bottom left-hand side of the mark? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. It just happens to be a green arrow that I have use on 10 this occasion. 11 So in the chartings and the work you do in relation 12 to the tip of the finger, do I understand that the 13 source material is that blue inked fingerprint? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Have you for this purpose studied the rolled impressions 16 that were available to the Scottish Criminal Records 17 Office from the fingerprints of Ms McKie or not? 18 A. No, I was never allowed a copy. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Have you seen them? 20 A. No, Chairman, no. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: The reason I am asking is that Mr Mackenzie 22 had said that they were smudged. He had some difficulty 23 with them because they were smudged and, therefore, he 24 chose to use the plain one. 25 A. I see. page 26 1 THE CHAIRMAN: That's why I was anxious to know which rolled 2 impression you were relying on, but it's the blue one. 3 A. This blue one here. I certainly never used a 4 fingerprint form from the SCRO office at all and I can't 5 say I've ever seen, one except in the 6 Justiciary building but I couldn't have a copy of that. 7 MR MOYNIHAN: We have the originals here but I can bring 8 them up electronically to show you. The 6th February 9 one is ST0004H. We will just need to move through 10 probably to the second or third page, fourth, fifth. 11 Page 5 is a form and we have the original here if 12 you wish to see it. Plainly it's got a rolled 13 impression of the left thumb. 14 A. Yes, I'd like to see it. 15 Q. In that case, if we could also give you the second one, 16 which is 18th February form, and for completeness you 17 may as well have production 187, that is March 1998. 18 It would seem we may not in fact have the originals 19 of the forms in the hall today. They've been sent to 20 various different places recently but it matters not, in 21 fact, because what is clear is that your own work is 22 done by reference to the inked original, the blue one 23 that you have? 24 A. Yes, that's correct. I was just going to see if the 25 details was on these, that's all. That's the only page 27 1 reason. 2 Q. I will just pass on because I don't have the originals 3 to show you. 4 A. Right. 5 Q. If I can then come back because this sequence assists, 6 what you have told me -- if we go back to your statement 7 FI0149.04 and if we again go back to paragraph 19 -- 8 what you are indicating is that at the time of making 9 your statement to Tayside Police you had still not 10 resolved one issue which concerned certain 11 characteristics at the top of the crime scene mark. 12 Which characteristics had you not resolved by that 13 date? 14 A. Those at the tip of Y7, which includes these green ones 15 marked by Mr Wertheim, is it? 16 Q. Mr Wertheim. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That actually assists me. If I work back then. 19 In relation to your original work, which is done 20 February through to March 1997, your original work, 21 taking them separately, had you observed what came to be 22 called the Rosetta characteristic? Had you observed 23 that in the mark? 24 A. No. I'd observed the characteristic but that's also one 25 that couldn't be brought into line with the print that I page 28 1 had. 2 Q. So the Rosetta characteristic was one that you had 3 observed but you could not bring into line, as you say? 4 A. Well, I hadn't resolved that either. 5 Q. Also the parts towards the tip are you indicating you 6 had not resolved either? 7 A. That's correct because at the time we hadn't worked out 8 the movement or what had happened. 9 Q. If I could bring up again, just for clarity, 10 Mr Wertheim's image (which is DB0172H) and we can look 11 at this, I am going to find again the one with the green 12 overlay ... DB0172H.008 is the reference just for us 13 digitally. 14 So may I take it, therefore, that we happen to have 15 here four green circles. One is the Rosetta and three 16 are to the upper right side of the mark Y7. When you 17 say in paragraph 19 there are certain characteristics 18 you had not resolved, that would include these four? 19 A. Yes, yes. 20 Q. With that in mind, Mr Swann, just to explain to you what 21 I want to do now is to draw a distinction between two 22 points in time. I want to look at your assessment of 23 the mark Y7 before those points were resolved and then I 24 want to turn to how you resolved this question and I 25 will come to that in a second. page 29 1 For this purpose, to begin at the earlier point, I 2 was going to use the Kent image but I am content, as I 3 indicated to you earlier, to use your other chartings if 4 you would prefer. It just so happened what I wanted to 5 do was discuss the with compliments slip in the Kent 6 image. So we can start there. If you feel the need to 7 move to your later chartings that we have you just 8 indicate to me if that is a sensible course. 9 A. Right. 10 Q. So in relation to the Kent charting, first of all, if we 11 could just keep the image that we have just now up and 12 then bring up a copy of HO0104. 13 What I will do is, first of all, highlight something 14 just for my purposes and it doesn't really matter which 15 of the two. 16 Do you have the photographic original yourself? You 17 may be more comfortable with Mr Kent's photograph of 18 your marking. 19 Would I be correct in understanding that what you 20 highlight in these chartings are a total of 18 points, 21 all of which are to be found in the lower part of the 22 mark? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Indeed, you are being very careful to draw a line to 25 either side to indicate where you see the area of page 30 1 movement? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Indeed, if I go to the top right-hand corner of the 4 charting of Y7, you actually say: 5 "Movement distortion, other digit above this area." 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, is this perhaps one way of encapsulating what the 8 unresolved question was at that stage. You weren't sure 9 whether it was due to movement, distortion or even the 10 possibility of the presence of another digit? 11 A. I was backing it all ways. 12 Q. So if I then go back to the original, what I want to do 13 is to highlight the with compliment slip and then rotate 14 it. You have the photographic originals. If you are 15 more comfortable with the photographic original just 16 please use that. 17 First of all, this is what you wrote to Mr Kent on 18 5th July 1999; is that correct? 19 A. Yes, it is. 20 Q. You say: 21 "After a lot of thought and time this is one of 22 those marks where, the more you look at it, you either 23 become more convinced that it is identical or you can 24 say that, because of the detail not in agreement, it 25 cannot be so." page 31 1 I appreciate I have slightly distorted the 2 comparison here because on the left-hand side of the 3 screen I have Mr Wertheim's charting up but when you are 4 saying -- and my reason for doing that is your own 5 images you sent to Mr Kent had points in agreement so 6 you didn't highlight points that were not in agreement 7 so I'm just using Mr Wertheim's as a convenient 8 comparison -- you say that there was detail not in 9 agreement. 10 Would I be correct in understanding that that detail 11 not in agreement would at least include the four green 12 circles in Mr Wertheim that we have been discussing so 13 far? 14 A. Probably a better word I could have used there was "not 15 resolved", because I don't know where they were from at 16 that time. So subsequently they are in agreement but at 17 that time when I was looking at this I hadn't resolved 18 them so I used that word. 19 Q. Again, because I don't want to worry about in agreement 20 or not in agreement or whatever, the point would be, if 21 I understand it correctly, that there are 22 characteristics on Y7 which, if one looks at them in 23 their relationship to the core, are not in the same 24 position in Ms McKie's fingerprint; is that correct? 25 A. Correct. page 32 1 Q. Therefore, one could say that they are in disagreement, 2 at least meaning this: they are not in the same position 3 in the mark and in the print form relative to the core. 4 They are not in the same position, therefore they are in 5 disagreement. 6 A. That's correct, yes. 7 Q. As you say, they are unresolved because, though you 8 later come to the conclusion that they can be brought 9 into agreement, you had not resolved that explanation at 10 this stage? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. If I then proceed through the next paragraph, what you 13 say is: 14 "My view is that because of the number of 15 characteristics in agreement, I cannot say it is not 16 identical but if a view was taken that because of the 17 areas of dissimilarity, I could well see it being 18 referred to as inconclusive." 19 I may not have read that correctly but ... 20 Do I understand that what you are indicating or you 21 at least see an interpretation of this paragraph that 22 says that at this point in time, which is July 1999, you 23 can see legitimate arguments each way in relation to 24 this mark Y7? 25 A. Yes, it reads that way. The problem is that when you page 33 1 get all these characteristics in agreement you know it's 2 identical and there has to be an explanation for those 3 that are not falling into that, shall we say, sequence 4 and at that time they weren't falling into that 5 sequence. So this is where the area of not doubt but 6 the area of not being able to be too positive came in. 7 I mean, the fact that there's 18 characteristics in 8 agreement means beyond any doubt that that mark is 9 identical to this one here but something's happened. At 10 the time I didn't know what had happened. So the words 11 might have been chosen better I suppose with hindsight 12 but that was what I wrote at the time so I stand by it. 13 Q. I am grateful, Mr Swann, because in fact all I wanted to 14 do was to have you explain this document because you are 15 the author of it, just to explain it to us. What you 16 said is important. 17 What you have said is if you have as many as 18 18 points in sequence and agreement, the crime scene 19 mark and the known fingerprint must be identical? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Therefore, if there are any observed differences -- and 22 by that I mean characteristics which are not in the same 23 relative position to the core -- if there are any 24 differences then they must have some explanation 25 consistent with unique identity because, with the 18 page 34 1 characteristics, there is indeed a unique identity? 2 A. Yes, that's correct. 3 Q. You then say that: 4 "18 points are marked, some strong and others weak." 5 Plainly there are 18 points marked. Perhaps if I 6 bring up just now the -- and we now need to rotate it 7 back -- and I will just highlight the chartings. We 8 will see if there is enough detail to be observed if I 9 highlight them just now. 10 You have highlighted 18 characteristics, some 11 strong, some weak. If I understand it correctly -- 12 please, correct me if I'm wrong -- we have heard some 13 evidence that as one goes towards the margins of a mark, 14 goes towards the end, there enters the mind a question 15 of the clarity of the detail and some question mark over 16 the clarity of the detail in particular if there is an 17 end to a particular ridge. The question that arises is 18 whether it truly is a ridge ending of some description 19 as opposed to simply the ending of the impression. That 20 is -- 21 A. I take your point, yes. 22 Q. Would you accept, because we have had some evidence 23 about this, that in the points that you have marked, 24 where you are at the periphery of the mark Y7, that 25 those would be what you had envisaged as being the page 35 1 weaker points of the 18 or did you have in mind 2 something else? 3 A. Well, weaker in the sense that they are not as clear to 4 see as the ones which are more prominent. That's the 5 point I'm making. The characteristic in my opinion is 6 still there but, yes, when you get to the periphery of a 7 mark, the end of a mark, if you've got a ridge coming in 8 it's far, far stronger than one going out, you know. So 9 you have got differences like that. But as far as the 10 characteristic detail is concerned then, yes, I'm happy 11 with them all but some are not as strong, if you like, 12 as the others. 13 Q. This is where we are greatly helped by the insight we 14 got from Mr Kent who spoke in terms of not talking in 15 terms of fingerprint interpretation because he's not a 16 Fingerprint Officer but, in fact, simply talking about 17 image clarity. That's what you are indicating is that 18 some of the features that you rely on, your opinion is 19 that they are indeed fingerprint characteristics but you 20 would accept they are not as clear on the image as some 21 of the others. 22 A. Correct, yes. 23 Q. In particular, if we are looking to the margins of the 24 mark, what I have in mind by the margins -- again, I 25 will try to see -- I hope it doesn't lose ... page 36 1 I had in mind as the points -- and, indeed, they 2 were the points discussed with Mr Kent -- the three in 3 the bottom right-hand side 8, 9 and 10. Because they 4 are on the margins of the impression those would be the 5 ones that have less clarity? 6 A. Yes. I mean to determine characteristics 9 and 10 that 7 are marked on there when I first did work on this mark I 8 had to get really big enlargements to trace the ridges 9 down to see the actual very, very faint ridges in the 10 middle which are difficult to see on here -- well, 11 difficult for the lay person to see, with due respect -- 12 but you take into consideration things whereby the 13 ridges widen to allow for the other ridge there. That's 14 prominent on here, in my opinion. But, yes, they are 15 difficult to see. 16 Q. I know that we have, because you have given us the 17 original Kent image that you had and we will come to 18 that a little bit later, we have the original photograph 19 that you were working from. Perhaps if I just show you 20 that just now. For us on the computer it is TS0006. 21 You will be shown the photographic original. (Handed) 22 Is this the enlargement that you are referring to as 23 the one that you worked with? 24 A. That's the one he sent me, as far as I can remember from 25 the detail on the back here, and this is the one I've page 37 1 worked from ever since. 2 Q. I am not sure if you are being heard. 3 A. Sorry. 4 Q. It is okay. 5 A. This is the enlargement that I received from Mr Kent. 6 And it's the one that I've worked with ever since. 7 Q. We will come back to that just in a little while. 8 If I then can return, please, to HO0104. It is the 9 with compliments slip, and just rotate it, please. 10 I will just complete the passages so that you can 11 explain your intention when you were writing this. You 12 say: 13 "My feeling is that it is identical in view of the 14 number of points in agreement. Having said this there 15 has been movement, distortion and possibly a further 16 impression involved." 17 Is that correct? That is what you wrote? 18 A. Yes, yes. 19 Q. I think that is the end of the note. 20 Again, at least when I was reading this, Mr Swann, 21 just for your comment, I read that as having at that 22 date an element of doubt in your mind because you were 23 saying that you feel that it is identical, however, 24 there was, to use the language of today, this unresolved 25 question. page 38 1 Would I be reading too much into this to say there 2 was an element of doubt? 3 A. Yes, with respect, you would, yes, because it has to be 4 identical with that number of characteristics in 5 agreement. I mean, you're not going to get those 18 6 characteristics on somebody else's thumbprint -- no 7 chance. So, therefore, you are looking for an 8 explanation as to what's happened with these up here and 9 at that time I didn't have one. 10 So whether that subconsciously conjures up an area 11 of doubt I don't know but there was no doubt in my mind 12 or I wouldn't have made the identification in the first 13 place. It's just that Mr Kent -- you haven't got the 14 original of this, have you? 15 Q. No, I don't, I don't think. As I said to you today, I 16 have a recollection that Mr Kent said he returned them 17 to you, hence why he photographed them before he 18 returned them to you but you don't have the originals 19 yourself? 20 A. No, I don't. It was a shock to get this to be quite 21 honest with you because I forgot all about it but, no, 22 he didn't send it back to me. 23 Q. We have just worked on the photographs as the best 24 record of what was sent. When it comes to looking at 25 particular points and whether they are ridge page 39 1 characteristics or whatever I am not going to use 2 Mr Kent's photograph of your chartings. We will use the 3 original source materials, the Terry Kent photograph 4 itself and other things, so don't worry about that. 5 If I may understand this, the logic and the 6 reasoning you just explained would mean, as you have 7 said, all along because there are as many as 18 points 8 in sequence and agreement your view was that 9 100 per cent certainty there is a unique identity 10 between the two, that Y7 and Ms McKie; is that correct? 11 A. Yes, correct. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: That means that if you have those 18 points 13 in the lower part of the print, then any difficulty, if 14 that is the way to put it, in the upper part you can 15 disregard because you wouldn't find anyone else with 16 18 points in sequence and agreement in the lower part. 17 A. That's correct, sir, yes. That's correct. There's a 18 good article on this in one of the American fingerprint 19 books which I've got a copy of here somewhere, where at 20 a court case, defence, prosecution and what have you, 21 and the expert there has 12 characteristics in agreement 22 and three disagreement and he goes through all the whys 23 and wherefores of -- well, what we're doing now. But 24 he's saying the same thing, which is fact, that with 25 those 12 he couldn't explain those 12 away. I couldn't page 40 1 explain these 18 away. There's no way of doing that 2 where they are there staring you in the face and you 3 know, as he said in his explanation, there's got to be 4 an explanation for those three characteristics in 5 disagreement but he doesn't know what it is. He can't 6 give it because he doesn't know what it is. But it 7 doesn't alter the fact that those number that he has in 8 agreement form a positive identification. 9 MR MOYNIHAN: I am grateful but, in fact, you have skipped 10 over one of my intermediate questions because -- 11 A. Sorry. 12 MR MOYNIHAN: It is okay, you have assisted me -- the Terry 13 Kent charting happened to have 18. At the time when you 14 were looking at the material prior to the trial (that is 15 in February and March), you have noted 16 points and you 16 would put forward the same explanation: if you find 16 17 in sequence and agreement, then any, as his Lordship 18 says, difference must be capable of explanation, albeit 19 you don't have a specific explanation perhaps for them. 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. You have also assisted me in coming, because I was going 22 to come below the number of 16, would it be your 23 experience that that same reasoning would occur below 24 the number of 16 points in sequence and agreement? 25 A. Yes, it would. page 41 1 Q. You mentioned an article in relation to America at the 2 level of 12. 3 What in your experience is the threshold that the 4 number of points of identity between a crime scene mark 5 and a known print where you would say with that number 6 of points in agreement between the two then any 7 differences must be capable of explanation because that 8 number is itself indicative of unique identity? 9 A. Well, my bottom line number is eight but, because we've 10 got differences in this particular mark here, it's not 11 often that you get differences in marks that you 12 compare -- in fact, it's very, very rare. So, I mean, 13 it does happen but not in the sense of this number here 14 which is quite a lot when you think about the top there. 15 I mean, this doesn't happen every day. It's 16 once-in-a-lifetime really. But the bottom line, as far 17 as I'm concerned, regarding a positivity of an 18 identification is eight characteristics in agreement. 19 Some people will say lower but I think eight is -- and 20 it's referred to in case law in the UK in England 21 anyway. 22 Q. What I then next want to turn to is the resolution of 23 these areas of doubt because you came ultimately to the 24 conclusion that the various points that had been relied 25 on as being differences could in fact be reconciled page 42 1 between Y7 and Ms McKie's fingerprint; is that correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. As I said to you this morning, I am myself not wedded to 4 any particular set of charts to use for this next phase, 5 I was going to look at the charts that you produced A to 6 R. Is that the best way of looking at this to see the 7 solution you found for these particular features? 8 A. If you just want to deal with these features, then it's 9 the first three charts of -- 10 Q. Mr Swann -- 11 A. You referred to D earlier on. 12 Q. Yes, I referred to D. First of all, I am conscious that 13 in moving into this what I might actually do is simply 14 start talking about points of difference because we 15 actually have to look at the points that are in 16 agreement as well but, for my purposes, I am going to 17 concentrate for the moment on the points that are 18 different. If this is an unnatural way for you to give 19 your evidence, then please just indicate. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Which way would you prefer to do it? 21 A. Sorry, you want me to explain the characteristics I'm 22 referring to on the Kent mark which I haven't found? 23 MR MOYNIHAN: No, sorry, Mr Swann. I have confused the 24 issue. At this point of your examination I could begin 25 by looking at points in agreement or look at the points page 43 1 of difference or indeed just ask you to look at an image 2 and ask you to tell us how you would interpret that 3 particular image, similarities and differences taken 4 together. 5 How would you prefer to proceed? Would you prefer 6 just to look at points of difference, the points of 7 similarity or just a clean image and proceed through? 8 A. Well, I think a clear image and proceed through, yes. 9 Q. If we could bring up then TS0006 just on the computer. 10 For your convenience, what that is is the Kent image. 11 What we can do is look at how you would analyse this 12 mark itself and not look at the number of points just 13 yet. Do you understand me? 14 A. Yes, yes, yes. 15 Q. That is what you are prepared to do at this stage rather 16 than to concentrate on the number of points in the chart 17 that you have done, yes? 18 A. Okay, yes. 19 Q. What I will do is highlight, so that it comes up in 20 detail without losing any of the essential detail, I 21 have brought up a highlighted section of it. You please 22 study the photographic original if you prefer. 23 A. No, it's all right. This is fine. 24 Q. When you were looking at this, what were the significant 25 features for you when you were analysing the mark Y7 or page 44 1 indeed as you analyse it today perhaps is a more 2 appropriate question? 3 A. Usually, as far as I'm concerned anyway, I usually sort 4 of home in on what's called the centre core of the 5 pattern. On here the pattern is not very clear. It has 6 a tendency to be a loop pattern, there's certainly no 7 indication of any whorl pattern there to me and the most 8 significant feature that I homed in on is what you 9 referred to earlier on as the banana-shape bifurcation 10 in the centre core going downwards. That, to me, was 11 the clearest to start with. 12 Q. I will try -- perhaps if I get this wrong you just 13 indicate. 14 A. You're on it. That's it. 15 Q. I will put in very roughly the banana -- 16 A. That's fine, that's fine. 17 Q. So that is roughly the position? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What I have done is put in some thick green lines to 20 indicate the area of the banana, the large bifurcation. 21 From there, what other features were you regarding as 22 significant? 23 A. Well, then I worked out to the right. The first one I 24 came to was one intervening ridge away and there's been 25 some slight movement there, as far as I'm concerned. page 45 1 The difficulty for me was I had to have bigger 2 enlargements to determine the spaces between the black 3 lines (the ridges) to determine, you know, if what I was 4 looking at did run in true straight -- you know, or not 5 disjointed, trying to work out the sweat pore on the 6 ridges to ensure I was on the correct line of ridge. 7 But working out from the banana-shape characteristic 8 there, I worked out to this area to the right. There's 9 several characteristics there -- there's quite a lot, 10 actually. But are you intending to mark all these or 11 what? 12 Q. Maybe with Miss Allen's assistance, all I really need do 13 perhaps is put on some obvious dot or some form of 14 marker of the features that you are referring to. 15 A. There's a clear one there marked just to the left 16 actually of the circle. 17 Q. There's a red dot and you are indicating the feature 18 immediately to its left; is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. That's one. Take your time. Mr Swann, I can take you 21 to your charting if it assists. 22 A. The first one I have marked to the right of the original 23 bifurcation going down is indicated there, the red mark. 24 Then coming along from there ... well, the next one is 25 just actually to the left of the red mark on there. page 46 1 It's just slightly to the right where it should be and 2 this is one of those where you've got a ridge coming up. 3 Whether it touches or doesn't touch, it's either a ridge 4 ending or a bifurcation. You follow it up to the one at 5 the top, which again is either a ridge ending or a 6 bifurcation. On the rolled impression, they do appear 7 as bifurcations. 8 Q. If I can interrupt you, Mr Swann, what I am going to do 9 is just give these red dots a number so that we will 10 have them preserved. First of all, the first one that 11 you marked we will call number 1 so they are just simply 12 in the order in you have spoken to them. The second one 13 that you marked I am just indicating just now and the 14 third one that you marked I am just indicating now very 15 roughly. In fact, that assists us. The two you see as 16 linked, the ridge leading to the other, are now numbered 17 as 1 and 3 on this particular charting. Is that 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. That is fine. What we will do is save that image. 21 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.0 3. 22 MR MOYNIHAN: We will lose some of that detail when we work 23 back so what I will do is bring up a clear image and 24 enable you to carry on your analysis but we will be 25 working from the same Kent image. If I bring up TS0006, page 47 1 again, please. We're now back just having recorded some 2 of those details. The reason for going back is that the 3 boxes would otherwise have obscured some of the detail. 4 If you can carry on telling us how you do analyse 5 this mark just now itself. 6 A. Well, I would proceed on from the ones that we just 7 referred to and find other characteristics which were in 8 agreement and mark them accordingly. 9 Q. Are there any, even as we look here just now, that are 10 prominent? Are there any that are prominent as we look 11 at the screen just now that are worth highlighting? 12 A. Can you mark this one here (indicated). Above the last 13 one that we marked that you numbered, there's a strong 14 bifurcation marked with the green arrow. 15 Q. Any other features that are significant? 16 A. If you come down the right-hand side of the right limb 17 of that bifurcation to a point here (indicated). 18 (Pause. 19 MR MOYNIHAN: Perhaps what we might be better to do -- 20 THE CHAIRMAN: It has gone now. 21 A. The one there marked with the green arrow, it's not 22 quite on the tip of the ridge ending but it's near 23 enough. 24 MR MOYNIHAN: What we have done then is put one arrow that 25 we can see higher up and the ridge runs down to another page 48 1 feature and you're indicating that the lower green arrow 2 should in fact be positioned slightly higher up and 3 perhaps to the left? 4 A. Yes, just about a millimetre or two upwards. 5 Q. That lower feature, would that be again a bifurcation? 6 A. Yes, a bifurcation. Well, it's debatable, 7 bifurcation/ridge ending. One can never be absolutely 8 certain. 9 Q. What I will do is just I'm noticing the time. If 10 there's any other strong characteristic that's worth 11 taking a bit of time just now to locate, Mr Swann, that 12 may actually help, if there are any other strong 13 characteristics you want to highlight -- 14 A. Are you talking about strong ones? 15 Q. Yes, strong ones. 16 A. There's a ridge ending there going towards the edge but 17 it's a strong point in my opinion. 18 Q. What you have done is marked an arrow in the middle of 19 the image on the left-hand edge? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. That is a strong feature? 22 A. It is in my opinion, yes. 23 Q. We have three arrows. Any other features that you would 24 wish to highlight just now just as the analysis of the 25 mark? page 49 1 A. (Pause) It's difficult to see it because it's 2 crisscrossing the other arrow, but there's a ridge 3 ending there also. 4 Q. What we will do then in this instance is I will have 5 these numbered just during the break in the order in 6 which you have mentioned them. So, if I understand it 7 correctly -- and I will stand to be corrected by 8 others -- they are numbered 1, 2, 3 is the top-most and 9 4 is the lower of the two arrows side-by-side. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: I was just wondering. I think Mr Swann 11 wasn't quite happy with the positioning of the "2" and 12 it might be better if we get it exactly where he would 13 wish it to be. 14 A. Yes of course. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: I would prefer it -- 16 A. It needs to be higher and towards the left a little bit. 17 (Pause) 18 MR MOYNIHAN: So that's corrected the position now. 19 A. Yes, that's better. 20 Q. Before we lose it, we will save that and that would be a 21 convenient point to adjourn. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: We will rise now until 11.50. 23 MISS BAHRAMI: That's FI2110.04. 24 (11.30 am) 25 (A short break) page 50 1 (11.55 am) 2 MR MOYNIHAN: Mr Swann, what I am going to do now is in fact 3 move to some of your chartings. I have the originals on 4 my coffee table beside me just now but I will use some 5 paper copies. 6 What I am going to do is bring up the chartings on a 7 PowerPoint which is TS0004. You have your own 8 photographic copy and, indeed, others have the 9 photographic copy if they wish as well and you have the 10 originals to your side so you can use as you, please. 11 What I am going in fact to do is to begin with chart 12 D for delta, if we just proceed through and find chart 13 D. We can move backwards and forwards with these but I 14 understand what you have done in chart D is that you 15 have indicated, you say, 32 ridge characteristics in 16 sequence and agreement. 17 Is that correct? 18 A. On the various displays, yes. 19 Q. Indeed, both pointed to points that are in agreement and 20 also set out the resolution of the points that were in 21 doubt. We can see all of that on the one page? 22 A. Yes -- not the characteristics referred to as the 23 Rosetta, just the ones at the tip. 24 Q. If I deal with it just in its order then, we will deal 25 with the Rosetta. page 51 1 So far as the Rosetta is concerned, is it not to be 2 seen in the top right-hand image? 3 A. Yes, it is. That's Mr Berry's image but, yes, it is, 4 yes. 5 Q. I was trying to follow the numbering when you said 32. 6 In fact, for myself I, in fact, if I included Mr Berry 7 in the top right I got 34 and the reason is that there 8 are 16 in the image in the top left, 8 in the image 9 below it (so that is 24), plus 10 in Mr Berry's was 34. 10 Is that right? 11 A. Yes, correct. 12 Q. So it was just a miscalculation on your part rather than 13 a suggestion there was duplication of any of these 14 points? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Just a miscalculation. 17 A. I was using another image that I prepared with 8 on. 18 That's why I got the 32, I must admit, yes. 19 Q. When you say you were using another image with eight on 20 it in relation to charts, let's just see -- 21 A. It is in the smaller album. 22 Q. So in the charts if I go to, first of all, Mr Berry has, 23 in the top right-hand corner, he has 10 points that 24 would include the Rosetta? 25 A. Yes, he has. page 52 1 Q. If I look at your chart N (for Nicholas), this is on 2 slide 15. Is that your equivalent but with eight? That 3 is your equivalent of Mr Berry's charting with eight 4 characteristics? 5 A. Not so much the equivalent but it's the one I've 6 prepared regarding the Rosetta, yes. 7 Q. If we use, in fact, the 8 instead of Mr Berry's 10 we 8 get a total of 32? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Just while we have page N up for the moment, on the 11 left-hand side there's an image of Y7. Do I take it 12 that you are again, as you always do, are using the 13 Terry Kent image as your basic image of Y7? 14 A. That's on the immediate left. 15 Q. On the immediate left? 16 A. Correct, yes. 17 Q. It is the fingerprint on the right-hand side, am I 18 correct in understanding that what you have used on the 19 right-hand side is the Daily Mail impression or not? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What is the source of the fingerprint on the right-hand 22 side? 23 A. The one in the top left chart? 24 Q. No, sorry. 25 A. Sorry, N. I thought you'd gone back to D. Sorry, yes, page 53 1 that's the Daily Mail, yes. 2 Q. N is the Daily Mail? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So the point that I am wanting to make, therefore, is 5 correct of your own charting N, if I go back to slide D, 6 please, though the charting in the top right is 7 Mr Berry's not yours, the point I want to cover is 8 nonetheless the same. 9 When you come to look at the Rosetta you, like 10 Mr Berry, used the image from the Daily Mail? 11 A. Correct, yes. 12 Q. So I just wanted to be clear again for sake of clarity 13 we assume, can we, that -- let's not make an assumption 14 about Mr Berry and his Y7 because I've a rough idea 15 where he gets his Y7 from. 16 In your own work you use Mr Kent's image of Y7? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. In relation to the building-up of your explanation of 19 identity, just looking at this sheet just now, would I 20 be correct in understanding that you have used three 21 different impressions of Ms McKie's fingerprint: the 22 first one which has the numbers 1 to 16 marked, at least 23 to my eye, looks again to be the same plain blue inked 24 original that we looked at earlier? 25 A. Yes, it is, yes. page 54 1 Q. Below that, looking to the tip of the mark, have you 2 used a blue inked rolled impression that you identified 3 earlier? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. In relation to the Rosetta, your charting is N, we are 6 just using D for the sake of clarity, what you use is a 7 Daily Mail charting? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Before we look just to the features that you have 10 highlighted on these charts, can you explain why it is 11 that you used three different impressions of the 12 fingerprint in building-up the chart here? Why do you 13 not use just the one impression of the fingerprint? 14 A. As far as the Rosetta's concerned simply because it 15 appears far more clearly on that Daily Mail thumbprint 16 than it does on these, unfortunately. I'd rather have 17 used these. It's on these but it isn't in the same 18 clarity as I was showing you earlier on. 19 As far as the marks at the tip are concerned, I've 20 got to use the rolled impression because they are not on 21 a plain impression, either the Daily Mail or the blue 22 ones taken from Ms McKie. 23 The one at the top there, which is one of her plain 24 impressions, no particular reason why I used that but 25 it's just simply it's clear and it serves its purpose. page 55 1 Q. So far as the Rosetta itself is concerned, as you say, 2 we did discuss this in the break, one of the points that 3 one could look at is that in the bottom left-hand side 4 where the blue inked rolled impression has been 5 reproduced -- it's black and white but we know it to be 6 the blue inked rolled impression -- you have not in fact 7 marked the Rosetta characteristic. You have a cluster 8 of 1 to 8 but you have not marked the Rosetta. 9 Is there a reason for not marking the Rosetta in 10 that impression? 11 A. This is the bottom left to this one on the screen? 12 Q. The bottom left. If I put my cursor, it is where my 13 cursor is just now (indicated). 14 A. Because I cannot bring the Rosetta in association with 15 those characteristics at the tip because of the movement 16 of the mark and the pressure applied, ridges have been 17 cramped together or something's happened which has 18 caused this difference in the counting procedure. So, 19 therefore, as far as the marks at the tip are concerned 20 they stand-alone. The Rosetta characteristic, as you 21 can see on the top right, can be brought into line with 22 the centre core of the pattern but not the top ones. 23 Something's happened in the mid-section of the mark 24 towards the tip which has caused this, well, coming 25 together of ridges, if you would, merging, because of page 56 1 the pressure and the twisting and the movement. So 2 that's why it's not mentioned. That's why the Rosetta's 3 not on that one. 4 Q. If I take you then to the next page E of this chart, I 5 appreciate E is for a different purpose. E is there to 6 show that there are some plain impressions that lack the 7 detail towards the tip but in the Shirley McKie print 8 that you have on the right-hand side, would I be correct 9 in understanding that that too is a copy of the blue 10 inked original? 11 A. It is, yes. 12 Q. On this occasion in the blue inked original, you have in 13 fact marked the Rosetta characteristic? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What I was wanting to understand is why you were able to 16 mark it on chart E but had not marked it on chart D. Do 17 you follow me? 18 A. I follow you. Well, no particular reason. As I've 19 said, it's just there out interest really, to position 20 is. It's just simply there out of interest to position 21 it. It's not in association with those marks in the 22 box; it's just that's where it is. 23 Q. When you say, "It's not in association with those marks 24 in the box", what do you mean by that? 25 A. As I've said there's been distortion, movement, pressure page 57 1 applied to the left thumb where it's placed on the door 2 standard. You can never replicate what's happened or 3 duplicate what's happened but there's been some slight 4 twisting like that (indicated), not much, just a slight 5 adjustment of the position of the thumb which has caused 6 this pressure, this movement and what have you and it 7 doesn't allow, certainly not me, I don't know whether 8 any other expert in the case has been able to do it but 9 I can't, and that is count from the Rosetta 10 characteristic to the tip to bring them into the same 11 sequence. I can count it downwards to the centre core 12 but not to the tip. But it's not particularly marked 13 there for any other reason than to simply show where it 14 is. 15 Q. I suppose where I'm having a degree of difficulty is I'm 16 perhaps confusing two different things. The two 17 different things I am confusing are these: firstly, the 18 Rosetta characteristic is or is not in the same 19 relationship to the points at the tip. In other words, 20 it's the same relative relationship to those points but 21 is not obvious in the rolled impression because some of 22 the ridges have been smudged together. That is one 23 possibility. 24 The second possibility is the Rosetta characteristic 25 is in a different position relative to the tip because page 58 1 of distortion due to flexibility in movement. 2 Do you understand why confusion? 3 A. I think so. If you could get the mark and twist it 4 round to its correct position, then the Rosetta will be 5 in the correct alignment with the points at the tip but 6 of course you can't do that. You can only do it by 7 working out what's happened, telling people it's been 8 moved through 60 or 66 degrees whatever it might be, 9 give or take a degree, and that's all you can do with 10 it, really. You've got to work round it. 11 Q. Therefore, if I look at chart D and understand this -- I 12 appreciate that this is Mr Berry's charting. I want to 13 look at Mr Berry's charting in the top right. If I am 14 following this correctly, what Mr Berry has done is he 15 has taken the totality of the Daily Mail print and he 16 has rotated the totality of the print round by 17 66 degrees; is that correct? 18 A. Yes. That's the caption at the top, yes. 19 Q. Perhaps if I begin in a more simple way. There has been 20 a discussion about whether the mark Y7 is properly to be 21 understood as a single touch of the finger or as the 22 product of multiple touches so the finger goes on the 23 doorframe lifts, albeit perhaps fractionally, and 24 touches again. 25 Which of those two is your preferred interpretation? page 59 1 A. Well, my interpretation is it's all one touch but with 2 slight pulling round when it's moved because of 3 whatever. 4 Q. Would I be correct, therefore, in understanding because 5 your preferred interpretation is a single touch, albeit 6 with movement, that what you are considering is that the 7 totality of the part of the thumb that is in contact has 8 moved round 66 degrees or thereby? 9 A. How do you mean? Can you just repeat that, please? 10 Q. Sorry, you are envisaging one touch with movement of the 11 thumb. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So the part of the thumb which has been in contact with 14 the door are you assuming the whole of that part is 15 rotated through 66 degrees or there by? 16 A. Not the whole of it, no. There's been -- the thumb's 17 been pressed on the door standard but in a sense it 18 probably all will have moved, I don't know, but 19 certainly part has stuck there and the tip has tended to 20 move to the left anticlockwise. How much -- and what 21 it's done is dragged the ridges round. I'm not saying 22 it's dragged them round at the bottom of the mark below 23 the centre core but certainly they've been pulled round 24 in this movement. 25 Q. What I am looking at on Mr Berry's charting is a number page 60 1 of features, which include as number 9 what we have been 2 referring to as the banana; is that correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You may actually have to be shown some other images. If 5 we keep what we have as D on the screen and also bring 6 up FI0167A. 7 What I am going to do, Mr Swann, is to show you some 8 chartings by SCRO. What I want to do is highlight 9 Mr Berry's charting and also part of the SCRO charting. 10 I have given you the photographic original so that you 11 can check. 12 If you look at point 9 on each of the two charts, do 13 we see that point 9 on each of the two charts is the 14 same. It's the banana? 15 A. Yes, correct. 16 Q. The Rosetta in Mr Berry's charting, he has two numbers. 17 He has 1 and 2, so I am not quite sure which of those 18 two is the Rosetta. 19 A. Number 1 is the island ridge to the right of it and 20 number 2 is where the downward slope of the end part of 21 the Rosetta is. 22 Q. So 1 and 2 are both, therefore, parts of the Rosetta? 23 A. Yes, correct, yes. 24 Q. What, if I understand, Mr Berry's charting is explaining 25 is that the cluster which is 1, in fact, to 10 can all page 61 1 in fact remain in the same relative position, the points 2 relative to each other, but they have moved round 3 66 degrees. Is that correct? 4 A. Yes. He's just simply rotated the image from the 5 newspaper. 6 Q. Therefore, what I'm interested in is not just the 7 Rosetta but some of the other features in what we have 8 come to call the lower part. So if I look at Mr Berry's 9 point number 8, a bifurcation that's out from the 10 banana, my understanding is that Mr Berry's number 8 is 11 the SCRO point 5? 12 A. Yes. It would appear so, yes. 13 Q. Similarly, Mr Berry's point number 7 would be the same 14 as SCRO point 5? 15 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you said 8 is 5? 16 A. 4, isn't it? 17 MR MOYNIHAN: Sorry, I apologise, 4. 18 So 9 is the same on them both; 8, Mr Berry, is 5 on 19 the SCRO charting; and 7, Mr Berry, is SCRO 4? 20 A. Correct, yes. 21 Q. My reason for asking you just to check that is what is 22 assumed by this is that, though there is 66 degrees of 23 rotation, Mr Berry's points 1, 2, 7, 8 and 9 have the 24 same relative relationship to each other? 25 A. Well, it would appear so, yes. page 62 1 Q. Therefore, on the SCRO charting we should understand 2 that the Rosetta point will be in the same relationship 3 on Y7, despite the rotation, the same relationship to 4 points SCRO 4, 5 and 9? 5 A. The Rosetta on the SCRO is way over to the left but in 6 actual fact it can be seen on the print way over to the 7 right because of this movement. 8 Q. This is what I am struggling with -- 9 A. It's not marked on the SCRO one. 10 Q. What I am struggling with is -- we will bring up and we 11 will come back to the SCRO image. If I go to another 12 image, FI0170A, and bring it up twice, FI0170A. 13 You will see in a second why I bring it up twice. 14 This is a charting that's done by Mr Zeelenberg which is 15 helpful only because he has the Rosetta characteristic 16 numbered and, therefore, we can see it clearly. 17 I understand from your comments on Mr Zeelenberg's 18 charting that in the fingerprint of Shirley McKie, the 19 Rosetta characteristic is what Mr Zeelenberg has marked 20 as point number 14? 21 A. That's correct, yes. 22 Q. Whereas in the mark Y7 the Rosetta characteristic is the 23 point that he has numbered 11? 24 A. That's correct, yes. 25 Q. We will give you the original if you are happy to see page 63 1 that as well, just in case. (Handed) 2 A. That's correct. He has 11 for 14, yes. 3 Q. What, in fact, I am trying to understand is how the 4 Rosetta, relative to the cluster of points that Mr Berry 5 has marked, whether it remains in the same position 6 relative to them or has altered its relative position. 7 Do you understand me? 8 A. Yes, it's because you're using a different fingerprint 9 from a different form. 10 Q. For Mr Zeelenberg's numbering, the banana is point 11 number 7? 12 A. It is, yes. 13 Q. And the two other features that we are interested in, 14 the two stepped bifurcations, are Mr Zeelenberg's 4 and 15 6? 16 A. That's correct, yes. 17 Q. It is whether in the movement that has occurred you are 18 assuming that points, on Mr Zeelenberg, 14, 4, 6 and 7 19 remain in the same relative position to each other. So 20 they have moved as one block. Do you understand me? 21 A. I understand what you're saying but -- well, they might 22 have stayed in the same position on here, on the print, 23 but they're not on here. 24 Q. That is what I'm trying to understand. What alteration 25 is there in the relative position of the Rosetta page 64 1 characteristic to the three other characters that I have 2 indicated? What difference, is there? 3 A. Well, if you start with the banana-shaped bifurcation 4 going down at number 7, the Rosetta characteristic is 5 about, what, a dozen ridges straight up, straight up at 6 number 11. Whereas on the print it's way over to the 7 right-hand side. This is because of the left-hand 8 movement of the ridge structure on Y7. It's pulled it 9 over, so it's pulled it over from the right-hand side 10 where Mr Zeelenberg has it marked. I mean, he obviously 11 has not recognised the Rosetta characteristic. He can't 12 have or he wouldn't have marked it. 13 Q. He certainly hasn't recognised the movement in it. 14 A. No. 15 Q. What I am trying to understand is if this has moved in 16 one block, what has happened to the associated features 17 7, 6 and 4? Have they moved similarly, 7, 6 and 4? 18 A. Well, 7, 6 and 4 are round the centre core and there's 19 not been a great deal of movement there at all, if any. 20 The movement occurred above there and taken the mark 21 upwards and towards the tip in a left-hand direction. 22 That's why the Rosetta's marked here above the centre 23 core, about a dozen ridges without counting, and on the 24 print it's way over towards the right-hand edge. 25 Q. If we go back to FI0167A and bring it up twice, please page 65 1 -- again, I will do the same. I will enlarge Shirley 2 McKie and Y7. The Rosetta characteristic isn't charted. 3 A. No, it isn't. 4 Q. It isn't charted? 5 A. No. 6 Q. However, if we actually look, can we see it in the 7 position that I am just about to indicate with an arrow 8 (indicated). It's just below my red arrow? 9 A. Your arrow is pointing to the little island ridge to the 10 end of it, yes, it is. 11 Q. What I am interested in is the movement and number 9? 12 A. On Y7? 13 Q. On Y7, 9, 5 and 4 are what I am interested in. Yes? 14 A. Yes, I'm looking at them, yes. 15 Q. Have remained in roughly the same position, 9, 5 and 4? 16 A. They have, yes. 17 Q. So no indication there of any significant rotation? 18 A. No. 19 Q. However, what has happened is that the point number 14, 20 Mr Zeelenberg's number 14, is that the position which 21 I'm indicating just now? 22 A. No, that's not. 23 Q. Where, is it? 24 A. It's -- if we can move the cursor thing -- (indicated) 25 yes, your on it, that's it. That's the end of the page 66 1 Rosetta. 2 Q. So the Rosetta is now marked by a red arrow in the two 3 sides. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What actually happened is that that is one feature. The 6 other three points that Mr Berry sees as being in 7 alignment (that's 9, 5 and 4) remain in essentially the 8 same position but the Rosetta has gone from a position 9 on the right to a position on the left. 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Can you explain to me how that would happen if those 12 points (9, 5, 4 and the Rosetta) are rotating in one 13 cluster around the same axis? 14 A. On the print that Mr Berry has used he has moved the 15 whole thing on its side. So, therefore, he's moving 16 them round, if you like, on an axis, but on the actual 17 mark Y7 you've got to allow for that movement and work 18 out that the position of it has moved completely round. 19 It's caused by the -- the movement has started on Y7 20 at a point just below where the arrow is marking the 21 Rosetta, below that point about a ridge or two no more, 22 that's where this shift has taken place. It's obvious 23 it's got to be there because the other characteristics 24 for the Rosetta and those at the tip all agree, not in 25 sequence with each other but they certainly all agree page 67 1 with the sequence of their own ... you know. 2 Q. All I am suggesting to you is that if, at a point of 3 axis, all these points are shifting round, that one 4 ought to see an alteration in the position of points 5 5 and 4, for example, and not just the Rosetta. 6 A. Well, I can't explain it. I don't know. I can't 7 explain that, what you're suggesting. I mean, all I 8 know is that above the centre core of Y7 when it's been 9 placed on to the door standard it's shifted through 10 60 degrees in an anticlockwise direction. 11 The print that Mr Berry's used there -- when I say 12 manipulated I mean it in the correct sense -- he's 13 manipulated it round to try to bring it in line with 14 characteristics associated with the centre core, with 15 great success apparently. 16 Q. First of all, before I do anything, if I could save the 17 images that are on the screen now, please. 18 A. You see, if you look at the image on the -- 19 Q. Allow me a second, Mr Swann. I will let you complete 20 your answer just in a second. I am just wanting to save 21 these images because we have the arrows on them. That's 22 all. 23 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.05. 24 MR MOYNIHAN: Sorry, Mr Swann, I interrupted you. 25 A. If you leave the image of Y7 in the position it's in as page 68 1 we see it on the screen and you pick this print up on 2 the right-hand side and rotate it anticlockwise, you 3 will bring the Rosetta characteristic round to a 4 position roughly where it is on there and you will also 5 bring some of the other characters round with it, as he 6 has here on this one. They've been moved round but not 7 totally out of position to cause any great, you know, 8 difference. 9 Q. The point is that if I moved Ms McKie's print round by 10 60 degrees, where 5 and 4 as we see them just now are, 11 one, 5 much higher than the other 4. If I rotate them 12 through 60 degrees number 4 and number 5 would come 13 closer to being on the same plane. Do you understand? 14 A. On the same plane as what? 15 Q. As each other. What I will do is show you something 16 that has been prepared for me, FI0182. These are just 17 some clockfaces with -- because you are talking of 18 movement from 2 o'clock on the clockface to about 19 12 o'clock. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. I've got some points here numbered 1 and 2 on the top. 22 There has been a bit of a confusion. The person who did 23 this needed fed and the bottom circles he got the 24 numbers the wrong way round. But in the top circles, if 25 we watch what happens as the clock moves round page 69 1 60 degrees, perhaps if we go through the slides. 2 (Pause) 3 Sorry, it is a PowerPoint demonstration so if we 4 open it in PowerPoint. (Pause) 5 I will set it up over here so people can actually 6 see it. 7 (To the witness) You may want to come across. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: I hope it can be done so everybody can 9 follow. (Pause) 10 MR MOYNIHAN: Sir, I think the only way it is going to work 11 is for people to come round and view it here. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: If it is important, then we had better do it 13 that way. Unfortunately, it is not going to be able to 14 be projected widely so the suggestion is we just all 15 come and watch it as best we can on what is here. I am 16 sorry about this. The IT is good when it works but not 17 when it fails. If we just gather as best we can. 18 (Pause) 19 MR MOYNIHAN: What we are looking at, Mr Swann, is the 20 proposition is that features move from roughly a 21 position of 2 o'clock on a clockface to 12 o'clock. 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. What I am going to do by this slide show is show what 24 happens to the features as they move round so that I've 25 drawn a line in towards the centre of the clock, so the page 70 1 axis is the centre of the clock. There is drawn a 2 bifurcation with its ridges being at points 1 and 2 and 3 just now, as one would naturally expect, number 2 on the 4 clockface is lower relative to 1? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. It is the same on both clock faces just now. Now what I 7 do is move on the left-hand side, the image, now through 8 roughly 66 degrees and the slide will bring up the 9 numbers. 10 What has actually happened by moving it through 11 66 degrees, yes, the shape goes from 2 o'clock roughly 12 to 12 o'clock but the positions of the two points has 13 also moved so that number 2, that was below number 1, is 14 now viewed on a horizontal plane, number 2 is now above 15 number 1. 16 Do you see that? 17 A. No, number 2 is still behind number 1. 18 Q. On the horizontal plane number 2 is above number 1. 19 Number 2 is roughly at the position of 12 o'clock on a 20 clockface, number 1 is now at the position of 11 o'clock 21 on the clockface, yes? 22 A. Which proves what? What does it prove? 23 Q. I suppose the question then is: what I am trying to 24 understand is, if I have as my clusters on this 25 clockface 9, 5, 4 and the Rosetta, if they are all page 71 1 moving in one block one would expect to see that they 2 do, indeed, move in a block and that the positions on a 3 horizontal plane would alter. Whereas in Y7 the 4 position of 9, 5 and 4 remains the same on the 5 horizontal plane and only the Rosetta has moved. 6 Can you comment on that? 7 A. Not really. I can only see what's happened. I can't 8 tell you why it's happened. I don't know, just that 9 working it out there's been movement and one has ended 10 up in that position as a result of the movement. 11 Q. The one that has ended up in that position is the 12 Rosetta? 13 A. Yes, and the marks at the top as well. It's not just 14 the Rosetta, quite a lot. 15 Q. Let us leave it at that then. We will resume our 16 positions and we can chat about it. (Pause) 17 The difficulty I have, Mr Swann, in carrying on the 18 conversation is that in chart D that we are looking at 19 just now -- sorry, your chart D -- there is no single 20 image which has the cluster at the top including the 21 Rosetta characteristic. There is no single image that 22 has the cluster including the points at the tip and the 23 Rosetta characteristic? 24 A. No, okay. 25 Q. So, therefore, I cannot see by looking at chart D what page 72 1 the assumed relative movement is of these points? 2 A. Well, the fact of the matter is, however it's happened, 3 I'm not sure that the sketches we just had in front of 4 us there then, I'm not a mathematician or a what have 5 you, but I mean was that the correct way to work it out? 6 I'm not sure. 7 I mean, all I know is from looking at Y7 and 8 comparing it with the known prints of Shirley McKie 9 there has been movement from a point of 2 o'clock back 10 to 12 o'clock. That's fact, because we can see it on my 11 mark Y7. How it occurred -- well, I know how it 12 occurred. It occurred because of the shift of the thumb 13 but the mechanics of it, I mean, all right, I don't know 14 but we end up with what we've got. 15 Q. If I move the argument on and go away from geometry and 16 revolving circles, the other feature that I said I 17 wanted to talk about was the fact that in building-up 18 the account which we see in chart D, you have used three 19 different fingerprint impressions. So it is not just 20 that there is no single image with all the points, in 21 fact there is a combination of three different 22 impressions of the fingerprint? 23 A. Yes, yes. 24 Q. There will be differences in clarity, one impression 25 compared to another? page 73 1 A. Well, all the three donor prints are quite clear. If 2 you are talking about the donor prints, obviously you 3 are. I mean, Y7 is constant. But the three prints that 4 have been used, they are all very clear. 5 Q. But there is a difficulty on one, for example, that is 6 the blue inked plain impression? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. The Rosetta is not there because the right-hand edge of 9 the print is not on that particular impression? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. So we have some points charted from Ms McKie based on 12 the blue inked plain that one cannot relate to the 13 Rosetta because the Rosetta is simply not on that 14 impression? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. If we go down below to the blue inked rolled impression, 17 you have not actually marked the Rosetta characteristic 18 in so that one cannot see how it relates to the points 1 19 to 8? 20 A. No, because I was marking other points to illustrate how 21 the marks at the tip had moved and their position. 22 Q. So far as the Rosetta characteristic is concerned, in 23 the blue inked impression, rolled impression on chart D, 24 do you actually see the Rosetta characteristic? 25 A. I can see it, yes. page 74 1 Q. Let us bring up the blue inked impression. It loses 2 something in its clarity. I don't know if you have got 3 the originals if you wish to consult your original 4 charts. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Where is the Rosetta characteristic? 7 A. (Pause) (Indicated) 8 Q. So it is where the purple arrow is? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. The way of checking, you may want to just look at your 11 chart E yourself, we will not bring it up. 12 A. Sorry, I missed that? 13 Q. If you look at chart E, the next chart? 14 A. Yes, I've got it. 15 Q. Are you content that you have indeed marked the Rosetta 16 characteristic in the place that you are content with? 17 A. Yes, quite happy, thank you. 18 MR MOYNIHAN: If we save that particular image. 19 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.06. 20 MR MOYNIHAN: What I was, therefore, going to ask, Mr Swann, 21 just as one last attempt at this particular one is -- 22 and you may not be able to answer this -- but is there 23 an explanation for all of the points we now have marked, 24 including the blue arrow, all moving in the same arc of 25 rotation or do you not know if they all move in the same page 75 1 arc of rotation? 2 A. Well, they are all moving in one direction, if that's 3 what you mean. They've all gone in a left-hand 4 anticlockwise direction. I can't say any more than 5 that. When the thumb's been placed down on the door 6 standard, there's been a slight adjustment of position 7 or movement causing characteristic detail to be pulled 8 round from roughly the 2 o'clock position to 12 o'clock 9 and that's why the characteristic detail is out of place 10 on Y7 when compared to the donor print of the left thumb 11 of Shirley McKie. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: So if it is, as you suggest, a single touch, 13 is it a matter of pressure that could move it? 14 A. There has been pressure, Mr Chairman, yes. It's been 15 placed down like that and for whatever reason, whether 16 pressure, I don't know. I mean, no-one can duplicate 17 what happened but we know what the end result is. How 18 it's happened is a matter of conjecture but certainly 19 it's moved round, not a great deal as far as the thumb's 20 concerned, it doesn't take much to move from 2.10 on a 21 clockwise as it were, but it's just moved round and the 22 pressure in doing so, of course the ridge structure's 23 all pliable, some have merged together but you have this 24 movement to the left. It's not something you're going 25 to be able to explain with total satisfaction I wouldn't page 76 1 have imagined because we don't know how it -- we weren't 2 there. We don't know. 3 MR MOYNIHAN: If I look at your chart D -- 4 A. E? 5 Q. D for delta, we have the cluster 1 to 8 and there is no 6 indication if one looks at Y7 that that cluster has 7 rotated, as my PowerPoint demonstration indicated, there 8 is no indication that, for example, the number 2 as I 9 had on my cock face moved to 12. If you look at 6 and 6 10 here, for example, they are in exactly the same 11 positions? 12 A. Mr Berry has designed this production here and himself 13 has turned the left thumbprint of Shirley McKie 14 anticlockwise to try and bring it all into -- how can I 15 put it -- into an association with each other. He's 16 manipulated that. I don't mean in any wrong manner but 17 he's moved the print round to make it appear so he can 18 bring the Rosetta characteristic into line with these 19 other points. 20 Q. What, in fact, I am asking is in relation to the bottom 21 left, which is your charting of the left rolled 22 impression? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. When one looks at the rolled impression on the right and 25 Y7 on the left, the positions of the points 1 to 8 are page 77 1 exactly the same on the clockface between the two? 2 A. The left thumbprint Y7 has been so positioned so you can 3 mark the charts or the characteristic detail looks, well 4 is, looks to be in the same places for ease of viewing 5 really. I mean, whichever way you mark the chart and 6 whichever way you bend the fingerprint round or the 7 crime scene mark it's just simply to be able to display 8 it so people can see it and hopefully understand it. 9 But you can't get away from the fact that there's been 10 this movement. I mean, when you look at them straight 11 up like that (indicated), the ridge detail on the left 12 is over on the right on the print. It's a fact. It's 13 there. You can see it. So, therefore, that has been 14 shifted round in that direction. 15 Q. What we will probably try and do is get my presentation 16 on the system because the slide went on to say that if 17 you want to move the detail from the left to the right 18 but not alter the relative positions of the points, what 19 you do is simply transfer the finger from one position 20 to another, straight across as opposed to rotating it 21 round an arc. Do you understand? 22 A. Well, I understand what you're saying but I don't see 23 that that's going to -- that certainly didn't happen. 24 It can't have happened. 25 Q. Mr Swann, perhaps if I end up just on this position by page 78 1 saying what it comes to is that what you say -- and this 2 is the basis of your opinion -- is that features which 3 on the mark Y7 are to be seen on the left, in Shirley 4 McKie's print you say the same corresponding features 5 are on the right tip so they have moved. Is that 6 correct so far? 7 A. No. No, it isn't correct with respect, Mr Moynihan. 8 The features on Y7, as we see them, as they appear, 9 they've been moved and, therefore, what you're saying 10 regarding the position of them being on the left and on 11 the right of the left thumbprint, fair comment, but the 12 left thumbprint has to be moved round to be able to 13 associate them in agreement. 14 Q. This is where I was saying how that movement occurs you 15 don't know. You shrug. You don't know? 16 A. It's moved. That's all I know. It's moved. I mean, 17 it's moved because the thumb's moved and of course when 18 the thumb moves it takes all the ridge detail with it. 19 It has to do. 20 Q. But what I am suggesting to you as a more basic 21 approach -- and the basic approach is to start in this 22 way: you see corresponding features in two different 23 positions one in the mark and one in the print? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Therefore, for them to be in agreement you have to infer page 79 1 some type of movement, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. But exactly what that movement is you are, in fact, 4 unable to say? 5 A. Oh, I can say what it is, yes. There's been a 66-degree 6 shift in an anticlockwise direction. 7 Q. Shift? 8 A. Well, movement, twisting, distortion. 9 Q. But is it a linear transfer of the features across or 10 have the features rotated round an axis? 11 A. Well, I don't know about rotating round an axis but 12 they've certainly moved, I suppose, in the fashion of 13 rotating round an axis but certainly they've moved 14 round. 15 MR MOYNIHAN: Sir, that would be a point to ... 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. We will sit again at 1.55 as we have 17 sat rather longer than usual. 18 (1.05 pm) 19 (Luncheon Adjournment) 20 (1.57 pm) 21 PETER MALCOLM SWANN 22 Examined by MR MOYNIHAN (continued) 23 MR MOYNIHAN: Mr Swann, just in relation to the movement of 24 the Rosetta and then I'll come on to some other points 25 then specific to the Rosetta itself in isolation, it was page 80 1 suggested to me over lunch that perhaps I am confusing 2 matters by speaking of linear movement and transfers 3 round an axis and various things. 4 What we have done is we have taken the images which 5 I showed you on the PowerPoint and we have tried to 6 simplify them. What I have been asking you about are 7 characteristics which, using the Scottish Criminal 8 Record Office number, are 9 (which is the banana), 5 and 9 4, the two stepped bifurcations and the Rosetta. What I 10 have done is taken the same clockface and I have now had 11 put in for me 9, 5, 4 and R. 12 Do you see that? 13 A. Yes, yes. 14 Q. All that I was suggesting was that before movement we 15 see that we start at point 9, we move and it was 16 suggested it might be helpful to use a geographical 17 reference, one would move north-east to point 5 and 18 further north-east to point 4 and then back R is again 19 still relative to 9 in a north-east position but closer 20 to north. Do you see that? 21 A. Yes, I do, yes. 22 Q. Before I move to the next slide, what I am going to do 23 is do, as you are saying, move the main line, which is 24 9, 5 and 4, from a position at 2 o'clock on the 25 clockface to a position at 12 o'clock on the clockface, page 81 1 which is what has happened to the characters in Y7. 2 If I now move to that next slide, what we now see in 3 the top left is that as the features have moved through 4 60 degrees or thereby, that's from 2 o'clock on the 5 clock to 12 o'clock, what has happened is that 5 that 6 was north-east of 9 is now directly north. 7 Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Indeed, 4 is also directly north and the R (here assumed 10 to be the Rosetta characteristic) goes from the position 11 in which it is pointing in a north Easterly direction; 12 do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. It's now moved position. It's actually pointing 15 north-west. That's what I was trying to depict. If 16 there is rotation around an axis, the points move in a 17 cluster their geographical position relative to the axis 18 alters also. 19 Do you see that? 20 A. Yes, I do see it. 21 Is where point 9 is positioned supposed to be the 22 centre of the fingerprint, Y7? 23 Q. It's the centre of the clock and it's, therefore, the 24 point of the shift in the axis? 25 A. So you've got 4 and R then on the perimeter of the page 82 1 clockface? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. But the Rosetta characteristic is not there. It's quite 4 low down towards the centre core. The points on the 5 outer surface would be the characteristics at the tip of 6 the thumb. 7 Q. I appreciate that. It's not said to be an accurate 8 representation of points 9, 5 and 4 on Y7. All that it 9 is is a representation of what can happen to points 10 moved through 60 degrees. We could have started 11 anywhere with the points and moved them through 12 60 degrees. 13 All that I was trying to demonstrate was that their 14 geographical position relative to the centre of the axis 15 shifts. It was no more than then to come back and see 16 whether you are in a position to tell me -- because if I 17 complete the account, move to the bottom circles where 18 we put in the same numbers 9, 5, 4 and R, if we want 19 those to end up in the bottom left-hand circle in the 20 same geographical position -- if we now just do that -- 21 what we, in fact, do is simply move it directly across. 22 So if we go back one slide, 9, 5, 4, R can move in 23 the left-hand circle to the same position -- move to the 24 next slide -- all that I have actually done is moved the 25 shape directly across. I have not rotated it. page 83 1 Do you see that? 2 A. Yes, I can see what you've done, yes. 3 Q. That is a question I had posed for you: whether, if we 4 go to the end, you find points in different positions in 5 Y7 and Ms McKie. You say they are the same points so 6 you are, therefore, trying to account for how they come 7 to be in different positions and this elaborate 8 PowerPoint was simply asking have you truly found 9 rotation or have you simply found movement across? Do I 10 understand you are not in a position to assist me with 11 that question? 12 A. Well, there's certainly been movement across. That's 13 apparent from the position of the characteristics on Y7 14 but I don't really see how you can associate -- I know 15 what you're saying here and I can follow what you're 16 saying, obviously, but I don't see how this solves the 17 problem, if indeed it is a problem. It isn't a problem 18 as far as I'm concerned. The characteristics are there, 19 I know where they are because I can see them, I know 20 where they are on the fingerprint because we can see 21 them; so, therefore, it's moved. How it's moved: 22 because it's moved round like that (indicated). 23 But, I mean, why the characteristics have fallen in 24 those positions then so be it. That's the way it's 25 happened, and nobody really can, I suppose, give you a page 84 1 more definitive answer than that. 2 Q. What I want to do is move on to a completely different 3 approach to the Rosetta characteristic so I will move 4 away from these images. 5 If I can come back to your chartings and that is 6 TS0004 and go to chart N for Nicholas. Previously, I 7 had asked you about Mr Berry's charting. This is your 8 own charting of the Rosetta characteristic; is that 9 correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Again, the template is the same. It is the Daily Mail 12 image. On this occasion, there are three lines that 13 might be in the same vicinity of the Rosetta 14 characteristic, 3, 4 and 7. Please look at your 15 original if you wish, either the one that is in the book 16 or if you have an original image with you then, please, 17 just consult whichever. 18 What I was looking for was simply an explanation of 19 what each of the lines is depicting; in other words, 20 what is the feature that is 3? What is the feature that 21 is 4? And what is the feature that is 7? 22 A. Feature 3, having dropped down from the cluster of sweat 23 pores on the left-hand side, the ridge below the 24 bifurcation, travelling along westerly, you come to the 25 point marked at 3 where it dips down at 128 degrees and page 85 1 the end of that tip there, which is probably a 2 millimetre or so long, that's point 7. 3 Point 4 is the little island ridge or dot to the 4 right-hand side of that downward slope of the Rosetta. 5 There are three characteristics at the end where it 6 comes to this downward slope and the small island ridge. 7 Q. Forgive me, I understood and I heard number 3 was where 8 the ridge at its end takes a dip and goes down 9 128 degrees. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. That's number 3. Number 4 is what you and Mr Leadbetter 12 refer to as the dot; is that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Forgive me, I just wasn't listening I was looking for 15 something else. What is the characteristic number 7? 16 A. That is the bottom end. It comes along a characteristic 17 like that and dips down like that with the dot there 18 (indicated). So that is point 3 at the tip where it 19 bends; that one is 4, the dot; and the one down here at 20 the bottom is 7. 21 Q. What is number 7? Is -- 22 A. A ridge ending. 23 Q. A ridge ending? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. I see. If I understand it correctly then, if I am page 86 1 looking, it is simply on my copy that is up on the 2 screen, number 7 seems to be on the lower ridge which 3 runs sort of left to right beneath the Rosetta. 4 A. No. No, it's not, no. 5 Q. So number 3 and number 7 are, in effect, the same 6 characteristic? Number 3 is depicting, if is coming 7 down at angle of 128 degrees and number 7 is the tip of 8 its end? 9 A. Number 7 is the bottom of where the ridge ends, yes. 10 Q. Thank you very much. 11 What I am interested in is the fact that this is 12 taken from an image in the Daily Mail and, therefore, 13 one does not know what generation of copy this actually 14 is? 15 A. This is a first generation from the Daily Mail 16 publication but how many down the line that is I've no 17 idea. 18 Q. Do you even know what the ultimate source is of this 19 particular fingerprint? 20 A. I understand it's one that Mr Wertheim took -- I 21 understand that, I don't know that for a fact but I'm 22 told. 23 Q. So it's a Wertheim image but, as you say, how many 24 removed from the original we do not know? 25 A. Well, it can't be many from its clarity. It must be page 87 1 pretty close to the original. 2 Q. Forgive me, because I am not qualified in English law 3 and you may primarily practice in England. From an 4 evidential point of view, can you just reason through 5 for me what the justification is for using, on an 6 essential detail, an image that's in a newspaper as 7 opposed to using a primary source of a fingerprint, 8 either the inked original or a first generation 9 photograph of the inked original? What's the 10 justification for using the Daily Mail? 11 A. The justification for using this is nothing more than 12 simply its clarity and it shows the detail I want to 13 show. I mean, it's fact, it's there. We know whose it 14 is because it's the same. If you compare it with the 15 rolled impression, it's exactly the same. So we know 16 whose fingerprint it is. I mean, what the reproduction 17 proves or disproves I don't know. 18 Q. This is where -- it is one of the themes I asked you 19 about earlier on, the building up an argument for an 20 identification by using different images, whether of Y7 21 or the fingerprint. On this occasion we're talking 22 about the fingerprint. 23 If I take you to what is on the screen and we can 24 look again at the original, the Daily Mail original, 25 just to make sure I have not distorted in any way on the page 88 1 screen here. (Handed) 2 What I am interested in is if I can show you, the 3 Rosetta characteristic we know is the ridge that runs 4 along to the point 3 and 4 and down. I'm interested in 5 the ridge below the Rosetta characteristic, the one that 6 I mistook for 7. 7 I am interested in that at a point which I will 8 indicate by the tip of the pen just now (indicated). 9 A. Yes, I see it. 10 Q. So there are two points. What I want to do is just put 11 my arrow -- I will have to come below so I don't obscure 12 the detail. My arrow is actually on the ridge even 13 below that (indicated). The arrow is intended to point 14 to a gap in the ridge above the arrow with, to its left, 15 some feature and then of course to get us back to the 16 Rosetta what we can see is I'm interested in the 17 configuration of the ridge immediately below the Rosetta 18 characteristic. Is that correct? 19 A. Yes, I can see what you're talking about, yes. 20 Q. Can you confirm that in the Daily Mail, the original, 21 there is indeed that gap that I pointed to? 22 A. Yes, I can see it quite clearly, yes. 23 Q. Secondly, is the feature that is immediately adjacent 24 and to the left in the Daily Mail? 25 A. The feature immediately ...? page 89 1 Q. There is a gap. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And then immediately to the left there is a feature 4 almost like a claw. Is that feature in the newspaper? 5 A. Yes, it is, yes. 6 Q. If people don't hear you then they will let me know. 7 What would your interpretation be of, first of all, 8 that gap in the ridge? From a fingerprint point of 9 view, what is the interpretation? 10 A. When the fingerprint had been taken then perhaps a bit 11 of ink has not hit that point so therefore it's not been 12 passed on. If you look over the print there's gaps all 13 over the place. I mean, it's a phenomenon in 14 fingerprints. 15 Q. So you think that that's simply an artefact of the 16 manner in which the fingerprint has been taken? 17 A. It could be, it could be, or it could be -- I don't 18 know -- the ink hasn't adhered to -- well, yes, the way 19 it's been taken. 20 Q. Because one alternative interpretation is that it is a 21 ridge ending? 22 A. It's someone's interpretation -- 23 Q. No, one alternative interpretation is that it could be a 24 ridge ending? 25 A. Well, I wouldn't go along with that because the ridge page 90 1 carries straight on. It doesn't carry straight on. 2 There is a small gap, certainly. I mean, if you come 3 down another ridge slightly to the right there's another 4 gap. If you keep coming down you'll see further gaps. 5 There's gaps all over the place. 6 Q. The feature that I've describe as the claw, what would 7 your interpretation be of that feature? In other words, 8 whatever the characteristic is immediately to the left 9 of the gap. 10 A. Did you mention you went to the centre core? 11 Q. No, no, sorry. The gap where the tip of my pen is just 12 now, immediately to the left there is some form of 13 feature. I've just described as that a claw. I don't 14 want to assume the answer to the question. 15 What would your interpretation be of that? Is that 16 a fingerprint characteristic? 17 A. No, it's ridge phenomena. It's just something that 18 happened on the ridge. It could be an enlarged -- it's 19 like a little white circle to me, is that what you're 20 looking at? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. Well, it could be an enlarged sweat pore. 23 Q. So you could construe that as an enlarged sweat pore? 24 A. It could be. 25 Q. It could be? page 91 1 A. It could be. I don't know. 2 Q. If we look again at the images that the Fingerprint 3 Inquiry has itself been using, if I bring up 4 Mr Zeelenberg's image again, it is just on a standard 5 photograph that we have used, Mr Zeelenberg is FI0170A, 6 if you allow me just a second. The Daily Mail is TS0004 7 and it was chart N I am looking for. 8 So what I am going to do is enlarge the fingerprint 9 and I will again reinstate the arrow (indicated). So I 10 have reinstated the arrow so that we know the point we 11 are looking at. The only reason for using Mr Zeelenberg 12 is his number actually helps me immediately because the 13 Rosetta characteristic he has numbered 14. 14 A. That's correct, yes. 15 Q. The ridge below number 14, which is the one I am 16 interested in, does not have in this impression the gap? 17 A. No, it doesn't, no. 18 Q. Nor does it have the appearance of an enlarged pore? 19 A. True. 20 Q. Equally, if I look to the precise nature of point 14, 21 you may want to look at the photographic original to 22 satisfy yourself, Mr Swann. It can again be made 23 available to you, if you don't already have it. 24 In the original that you have -- and it is simply 25 Mr Zeelenberg has used one of our standard images -- the page 92 1 Rosetta characteristic itself, does it have the point 2 that you had in your drawing, your point immediately 3 adjacent to the Rosetta characteristic, the dot? 4 A. Well, there's something very faint to the side of it but 5 I take the point you're making, but you get these 6 differences on -- when I say differences I'm not talking 7 about different ridge characteristics, I'm talking about 8 the different, you know, gaps, closures, call them what 9 you will, all over a print. 10 If you look on here, if you want to look and mark 11 all the differences, compare that with that with another 12 one, you will probably find hundreds. But that's not 13 ridge characteristic detail used for making an 14 identification. 15 Q. If I show you, for example -- my reason for asking this 16 is if I look at Mr Berry's article, which is SG0093, 17 this is Mr Berry, and it is his journal, Strabismus 18 2002, where he is talking about the Rosetta 19 characteristic. 20 If I move you to page 6, do we see in fact what he 21 has worked from is a copy of Y7 and a copy of Ms McKie's 22 print, both apparently published on an Internet site by 23 Ed German? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. So he is looking at two Internet copies and the one page 93 1 particular feature which he highlights is the dot 2 adjacent to the Rosetta characteristic? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So he is trying to locate the dot immediately adjacent 5 to the Rosetta characteristic as well as the Rosetta 6 characteristic itself; is that correct? 7 A. Yes, that would appear to be the case. 8 Q. If I take you then to page 10 of his article -- and we 9 will come back to another point in a moment -- he ends 10 at page 10, at the foot immediately above his name, if I 11 just highlight it. He says this: 12 "I will only make a definitive statement as to the 13 identity for any possible future inquiry or other 14 judicial proceedings upon receipt and study of sets of 15 the original marks as used by SCRO for their chart 16 production at Shirley McKie's trial." 17 Do you see that? 18 A. Yes, indeed, yes. 19 Q. So, in fact, what I would suggest he is conscious of is 20 the fact that if he is studying Internet copies he does 21 not know the provenance of any of the copies. 22 Would that be correct? 23 A. It's only the mark that's the Internet copy. The 24 fingerprint on the other side is the same one that we 25 have here. page 94 1 Q. On that particular page, perhaps, but if I move back to 2 page 6, what he has on page 6 is a left thumb impression 3 of Shirley McKie I would suggest to you is not the 4 Daily Mail? 5 A. No, it's not, certainly not, no. 6 Q. So he started out by looking at two Internet images, Y7 7 and an Internet image by Mr German of Ms McKie's print? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What he has, in fact, done ultimately is substituted for 10 Mr German's print of Ms McKie a Daily Mail print? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. He has found in the Daily Mail print a feature, not just 13 the Rosetta but the dot that matches the Rosetta plus 14 dot that Mr German has on his Internet site? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. I would suggest to you that what his ending comment 17 would be consistent with is that he would need to look 18 at original -- that's first generation -- material to 19 satisfy himself, first of all, that Y7 itself does, 20 indeed, possess that dot, yes? 21 A. I don't know what's on his mind but certainly I'm not 22 going to dispute what you're saying. But the point is 23 there's not just the dot at the end of that downward 24 slope on the mark, there's all the other characteristics 25 as well. I mean, where you get the print from, as far page 95 1 as I'm concerned, doesn't really matter. It might 2 matter to some but certainly if you can make the 3 identification from a fingerprint, whether it be on a 4 fingerprint form or in the daily newspaper, it's 5 irrelevant. 6 Q. Mr Swann, all that I will do is just put this for your 7 comment to finish this particular point: when it comes 8 to the Daily Mail image, the one that is on the 9 right-hand side of the screen just now, what you were 10 doing is attaching significance to the shape of the 11 Rosetta characteristic and the dot immediately adjacent 12 to it. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. But not attaching weight to what is seen here as 15 potentially a gap in the ridge below with an enlarged 16 pore to its left because those are not the features that 17 you are trying to match up with Y7. 18 A. Well, as far as I'm concerned, they're just -- I mean, 19 there's marks like that or there's gaps like that, 20 there's sweat pores like that, all over the print. Why 21 pick those two? I mean, there's some down at the bottom 22 here that I can see staring me in the face. I mean, 23 they're all over the place. They don't make any 24 difference, Mr Moynihan, at all -- to the 25 identification, that is. page 96 1 Q. If I move then to some other aspects of this particular, 2 the same topic in relation to the chartings that there 3 have been of Y7 by yourself, if I go back to the Kent 4 charting, which is HO104 -- before we do, if we save the 5 red arrow which I have lost once already. 6 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.07. 7 MR MOYNIHAN: If I could bring up a copy on one side of the 8 screen, please, of HO0104 and also a copy of FI0167A. 9 What I am going to do, Mr Swann, is to compare your 10 charting that you did and sent to Mr Kent with a SCRO 11 charting that has been done for us. 12 Do you have the original with you? 13 A. No, they've all gone back. 14 Q. You have handed it back. That's fine. (Handed) 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Perhaps you will just explain what Mr Swann 16 now has been given so that we can follow it. 17 MR MOYNIHAN: What I have on the screen, Mr Swann, is 18 firstly on the right-hand side I have highlighted the 19 charting of Y7 that has been done by the members of 20 staff at the Scottish Criminal Record Office and you 21 have been given the photographic original of that. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I have also brought up on the left the charting of Y7 24 that you did and sent to Mr Kent and you have also been 25 given Mr Kent's photograph of that charting? page 97 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. The final thing I have done is I have given you the 3 original unmarked Kent photograph so that you can use 4 that as well. 5 What I want to do is to ask you -- we touched on 6 this earlier -- about features that are on the edges of 7 the impression and on your charting that was sent to 8 Mr Kent -- I will call it the Kent charting, if you 9 don't mind -- I am interested in the points that are 8, 10 9 and 10. 11 The reason I brought up the Scottish Criminal Record 12 Office charting is that of those three points only one 13 seems to me -- and I stress seems to me -- only one 14 seems to be common to you and to the Scottish Criminal 15 Record Office and the point that I think is in common is 16 your 10 is the same as their 7. 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. But otherwise they have not marked your 9 or your 8? 19 A. That's true. No, they haven't. 20 Q. So far as the Scottish Criminal Record Office number 7 21 is concerned -- perhaps, if I could save that image and 22 we will come back to it. 23 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.08. 24 MR MOYNIHAN: Just to assist me so that I know what I am 25 looking for, I would understand point 10 to be on the page 98 1 left, descending ridge, forming part of the banana. 2 A. Are you talking about my point 10 now? 3 Q. Your point number 10, yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So it is the left side of the banana. 6 A. My point 10 is their point 7. It's on the left-hand 7 limb of the -- 8 Q. Of the banana. That's right. Again, just for clarity 9 because we will look at it in a slightly different way, 10 number 9, which is unique, your number 9 is on the right 11 side of the banana, the right limb of the banana. 12 A. My number 9 is on the right of the right limb coming 13 down. 14 Q. So it's to the right of the right side of the banana? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That's fine. 17 A. If you look at the two -- sorry, the right ridge of the 18 banana one coming down and the one next to it going to 19 the right coming down, you'll see mine coming up in the 20 middle. It's faint but it's there coming up. 21 Q. First of all, I want to just keep those two in mind. If 22 I could then bring up FI0164A and if I can also bring up 23 to its side FI0145 and move to page 4, what I have 24 brought up, Mr Swann, is Mr Wertheim's charting of Y7 25 and I am interested in an area that is Mr Wertheim's page 99 1 difference number 4. So his difference number 4 is 2 being shown by me in a circle (indicated). 3 A. Yes, I see it. 4 Q. Does that circle embrace the two sides of the banana? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. At the lower ends? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What you say, if I can enlarge number 4 as your phase 2 9 comments -- I don't know if it can be enlarged ... can 10 we enlarge line number 4, please. 11 What you have, in fact, said about Mr Wertheim who I 12 may say is saying there is no bifurcation to be seen on 13 either leg of the banana as it descends, you say: 14 "Both bifurcations are present if clear mark is 15 examined -- I cannot see them on this copy of Y7." 16 Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Again, it is the same theme I am running that perhaps 19 different images might disclose different detail. Is 20 that what your view is, that on the images that the 21 Inquiry has been using the bifurcations on the lower 22 edges of the two sides of the banana are not to be seen? 23 A. Well, I can't see them with any degree of clarity, I 24 must admit. I can see them on this one here 25 (indicated). page 100 1 Q. You said you can see them on this one here? 2 A. Oh sorry, the SCRO enlargement you have given me. 3 Q. You can see them on the enlargement itself? 4 A. One is marked anyway, number 7. I can see where the 5 next one is, which I have as number 9. 6 Q. If you give me just a second, if I go back then to the 7 saved image number 8 from today, what I have done is 8 brought back up on the right-hand side a digital copy of 9 the SCRO charting. You have the photographic original. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Their point 7 is intended to point to the same feature 12 as your point 10. Are you indicating that on the 13 photographic original that you have before you that you 14 can see the bifurcation that's indicated by number 7? 15 A. I can, yes. 16 Q. Can you indicate to us what there is to be seen that 17 would indicate a bifurcation in that location? 18 A. Because there's a faint ridge coming up between the two 19 limbs of the banana bifurcation. 20 Q. You will need to assist me, plainly. I can try to 21 enlarge the image on the right a little bit more. I 22 have enlarged it. Can you assist by showing what it is 23 that you regard as that feature? 24 A. The one that's marked 7 by SCRO. 25 Q. The one that's marked 7 by SCRO is where my cursor is page 101 1 just now. 2 What is it that you see that would be consistent 3 with a bifurcation in that position? 4 A. Well, I can see a ridge coming up, ending where the dot 5 is, in the middle of the two limbs of the bifurcation. 6 Q. So are you indicating what I am demonstrating just now, 7 that mark (indicated), that feature? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What I will do is I will put a circle over the area 10 (indicated). So within the red oval, immediately to the 11 right and descending from the spot which was marked as 12 number 7 you see evidence of a bifurcation; is that 13 correct? 14 A. Yes, I do, yes. 15 Q. What is being suggested by some other experts who have 16 looked at this is that they do not see divergence of the 17 next ridge, which is the right limb of the banana. What 18 comment do you have in relation to that? 19 A. They don't see a divergence of the right limb? 20 Q. A divergence that would occur to accommodate a 21 bifurcation in that location? 22 A. Well, I can see sufficient room for the bifurcation 23 because I can see the bifurcation between the two limbs. 24 So obviously there's room because it's there. 25 Q. So far as moving then and just using the image that's on page 102 1 screen just now -- it happens to be the Inquiry's 2 image -- in the Kent charting that you did, immediately 3 adjacent to your 10, off from the right-hand limb of the 4 banana you have marked another fingerprint 5 characteristic. 6 Is that to be seen or is there any evidence of that 7 in this photograph? 8 A. Yes, indeed. 9 Q. Where is that? 10 A. If you look to the right of your downward stroke of the 11 circle you have put on there, you've got the black ridge 12 of the right limb of the bifurcation coming down. Then 13 if you move that key or that indicator there, just a -- 14 that's it, hold it there, perhaps a little bit higher 15 probably ... that's it (indicated). Now immediately 16 beneath the, if it is the handle of the key, you can see 17 the ridge coming down quite clear. 18 Q. So where would it be? Would it be positioned just as 19 the pen is coming just now? 20 A. Somewhere just there, yes. 21 Q. It is there? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So if I now mark it so that (indicated) -- we can always 24 look at an unmarked copy later -- you are seeing a line 25 in the vicinity of where I have drawn in green? page 103 1 A. The bulk of it tends to finish just at the bottom of 2 that green line. It probably goes on a fraction more 3 but not too high. 4 Q. We will finish with the next point, your point 8, the 5 final of these points that you chart, point number 8. 6 You may have to look at the photograph that Mr Kent has 7 in his charting. 8 What is point number 8 on this image? Where is it? 9 A. It's covered mostly by the red line -- I don't know what 10 number it is ... it's covered mostly by the point number 11 6, the line indicating point number 6 on this chart. 12 Q. So the line coming down -- 13 A. Yes, that's the one, yes. It's in there, a bit further 14 down perhaps. Somewhere there (indicated). 15 Q. It's about there? 16 A. I think so, yes. 17 Q. So what I will do is put ... (pause) 18 So it's in the area, roughly, of my blue circle? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Perhaps more to the left than my blue circle than the 21 centre? 22 A. It's in that area there, yes. 23 Q. Could we save that image then. 24 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.09. 25 MR MOYNIHAN: What I want to do is to give you your own page 104 1 image that is the unmarked Kent photograph, TS0006. 2 That gives you an image to work with that has no lines 3 on it to disturb you. Could we enlarge the fingerprint, 4 please. On this enlarged image, can you point me to the 5 feature which is feature number 8, please? 6 A. (Pause) Yes. 7 Q. What is it, Mr Swann, that you see in that position? 8 A. A ridge ending -- a ridge ending upwards -- very, very 9 faint indeed. 10 Q. When you say "very, very faint", is it the black dot? 11 A. No. 12 Q. What is it? 13 A. It's just to the side of the black dot. 14 Q. So you see something to the side of the black dot? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Can you describe to me what the shape is that you're 17 actually seeing? 18 A. It's a ridge ending upwards, a line. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it to the right of the black dot? 20 A. No, to the left of the black dot. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: So the arrow is covering it slightly, is it? 22 A. The arrow's probably slightly -- well, the arrow head is 23 pretty well on where the ridge ends. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. 25 MR MOYNIHAN: What I have done is brought up a tool to draw page 105 1 a line. 2 A. Sorry? 3 Q. I have brought up the tool that enables you to draw a 4 line. Can you draw for me, please, where the ridge ends 5 and where it runs, if it's a ridge ending where the 6 remainder of the ridge is actually to be seen. Can you 7 draw me the line? 8 A. (Pause) 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Would it help if we take the short break now? 10 Normally we rise for ten minutes at this stage and I was 11 going to say if I do that now, which is the time we 12 normally rise, then you could mark it at your own 13 convenience. 14 A. Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: We will sit again at 3.00. 16 (2.50 pm) 17 (A short break) 18 (3.06 pm) 19 MR MOYNIHAN: Sorry, sir. I had asked Mr Swann just to 20 check something for me. There is on screen just now a 21 marking on a photograph Mr Swann has done of his feature 22 at number 8. We will obviously retain the photographic 23 original. (TS2110) 24 First of all, you have marked a dot which, I 25 understand the lower of the three dots would be the page 106 1 ridge ending; is that correct? 2 A. It's a ridge ending bordering on a bifurcation. 3 Q. The red line, is that indicated to show the approximate 4 direction of the ridge which ends in that position? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Thank you very much. In that case what I want to do is, 7 rather than go through all the points of similarity with 8 you, I have two particular points I want to pick up. 9 Firstly, I had circulated at the end of last week or 10 over the weekend a list of points which I had studied in 11 your what I call Kent charting, comparing those with the 12 SCRO charting for this Inquiry and I produced a table. 13 I was going to ask you simply to tell me if my 14 understanding is correct or not in the table that was 15 produced. 16 A. This is SCRO FI0167A and Swann HO104? 17 Q. That's correct. 18 A. Point number 1 is a dash. It isn't marked. Point 19 number 2, I've put no. Put number 2 SCRO is my point 20 number 15. 21 Q. Your point number 15, thank you. 22 A. 3 and 5 correct; 4 and 6 -- well, going down the 23 left-hand column, 3 correct as marked, 4 correct, 5, 6, 24 7 correct, 8 is not marked, 9 is correct, 10 is not 25 marked, 11 is correct, 12 and 13 not marked, 14, you've page 107 1 got "16?", I've put "no 15". 2 15 on the left is number 2, 16 not marked, 17 is 13 3 correct. 4 Q. If you give me just a second. So you have made three 5 changes then to my list. SCRO number 2 I have down as 6 your number 2 but you say, no, that's your number 15? 7 A. Yes. I don't know where ... 8 Q. Mr Swann, just before we check that, the three things 9 that you have changed: SCRO 14, I had "16?" and you have 10 told me number 15? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Then SCRO number 15 you have told me your number 2? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The only query I then have is that you have given me 15 your 15 twice. You have given me your 15 against SCRO 16 number 2 and also against SCRO number 14. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: It may be just a reversal. I am wondering is 18 it a reversal because SCRO 15 is your 2. 19 MR MOYNIHAN: I see the point, sir, yes. 20 A. And 2 is 15. 21 MR MOYNIHAN: In that case the only issue is for SCRO number 22 2, am I to put in your 15? 23 A. I don't have the appropriate -- 24 Q. Mr Swann -- 25 A. -- things in front of me. I'll check that one out. page 108 1 Q. What I would like you to check out is you have given me 2 your number 15 for two SCRO points, number 2 and number 3 14. I take his Lordship's point about the reversal of 2 4 and 15. I will ask you just to check that for me. 5 The table though also helps me to identify four 6 characteristics that I would like to talk to you about 7 just now without going over the list. They are SCRO 10, 8 11, 12 and 13. 9 10 and 11 we have discussed so far as a lake that's 10 above the point that we have been referring to as the 11 banana and 12 and 13 are an incipient ridge adjacent to 12 the lake. 13 If I am correct -- and it seems that I am correct -- 14 of those four only one was picked up in your Kent 15 charting that was one of the two bifurcations in the 16 lake, number 11. Is that correct? Perhaps I should 17 show you the -- if I show you the SCRO -- 18 A. Number 11 on mine is the top of the banana bifurcation. 19 Q. Yes, but number 12 on yours will be one of the 20 bifurcations in the lake. 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. But in your Kent charting you have not pinpointed the 23 second bifurcation that completes that lake. 24 A. No. Well, I just didn't use that characteristic. 25 Q. That's fine. Nor did you use the characteristics 12 and page 109 1 13, which are the adjacent incipient ridge. 2 A. No, I didn't. 3 Q. What I want to do is simply to discuss those with you. 4 As I understand it, if I look at that as a group of 5 four points and look at your charts, if I begin in 6 TS0004 and I will work backwards from charts that do not 7 seem to use these to one that perhaps does, if I go to 8 chart O. 9 A. What letter? 10 Q. O. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: O for Oscar. 12 A. Yes. 13 MR MOYNIHAN: Simply by looking at -- it is now a rolled 14 impression of Ms McKie -- but simply by looking at the 15 rolled impression, I don't see -- I may be wrong -- that 16 you have picked up any of the points of the lake or the 17 incipient ridge in that charting? 18 A. No, I haven't, no. 19 Q. Then the other one that I had not seen evidence of you 20 using any of these four points is chart D for delta. 21 A. No, I haven't. 22 Q. And no one of those charts uses these features? 23 A. No. 24 Q. The one that may use them is chart B for bravo. 25 Again, please, you tell me whether any of the points page 110 1 that are marked here are indeed intended to pick up 2 either the lake or the incipient ridge that SCRO rely 3 on. We will just put that one to the side and bring up 4 the SCRO charting which is FI0167A and I will highlight 5 just now the Ms McKie fingerprint so we see clearly the 6 features that I am referring to as the lake and the 7 incipient. 8 In the SCRO charting, the lake has a bifurcation 10 9 to the left and a bifurcation 11 to the right; do you 10 see that? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. With above the right bifurcation (that's above 11) 13 marked an incipient ridge 12 and 13? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So that is what we are referring to. On the left-hand 16 image -- that is your own charting B, if I highlight 17 that -- can you tell me if there are any of the points 18 you have highlighted that correspond to any one of 10 to 19 13? 20 A. Yes, number 13, the left-hand point of the oval-shaped 21 bifurcation. 22 Q. But is that all? 23 A. Sorry? 24 Q. Is that all? 25 THE CHAIRMAN: That's the only one? page 111 1 MR MOYNIHAN: Is that the only one? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. We have gone through a number of charts. Is that a fair 4 representation that you have not yourself highlighted 5 anything other than one of these 4 features as a point 6 of significance to you? 7 A. Yes, fair comment. 8 Q. What I would like to do is to see whether that is a 9 point of difference between you and SCRO or rather all 10 you've done is looked at a limited number of 11 characteristics and highlighted the most obvious ones. 12 You have looked at the SCRO charting yourself. Are 13 you content with their marking of points 10, 11, 12 and 14 13 as being points that are in common between Y7 and 15 Ms McKie? 16 A. Yes, yes. 17 Q. Perhaps what I should do is I will take down your image 18 on the left. I will give us a second image of FI0167A 19 on the left instead. 20 What I will do, Mr Swann, is I will enlarge Y7 so 21 that we now have two enlarged copies, one of Ms McKie's 22 print and one of Y7 now with the markings. 23 What is it that you see in Y7 that persuades you 24 that there is, indeed, a lake at the positions 10 and 11 25 marked by SCRO? You can either use that -- you have the page 112 1 original of the SCRO charting. You also have available 2 to you the Kent photograph if you wish, the unmarked 3 Kent photograph. 4 A. Sorry, the question was again? 5 Q. Can you explain to us what you observe in Y7 that is 6 consistent with the presence of a lake in the position 7 of 10 and 11? 8 A. Well, I can see where it's marked at either end, the 9 lake formation. The upper rim of it is probably 10 stronger than the lower one because the lower one 11 probably tends to merge into the ridge below it if 12 you're not careful but you can see where it is. 13 Q. I have now enlarged the image to come in closer. 10 is 14 where my cursor is just now (indicated)? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. 11, 12 and 13 above? 17 A. I can see 12 and 13 are quite clear. 10 and 11 you can 18 see where the ends of each elongated bifurcation is or 19 are. 20 Q. Are those simply features that are to be observed at the 21 points where the lines end? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So far as the incipient ridge, is that again where my 24 cursor is (indicated), the black line that's between the 25 two descending red lines? page 113 1 A. It is, yes. 2 Q. In relation to the incipient ridge, what I'd put to you 3 was that the incipient is adjacent to the SCRO point 11. 4 In fact, on this fingerprint image the incipient is in 5 very close contact, if not actually in contact, with 6 ridge which is the upper ridge of the lake? 7 A. Well, I can see where it's marked and it's quite close 8 to both the upper and the lower ridges but it neatly 9 runs parallel between the two and you can see a gap both 10 above and below. It's an independent ridge. 11 Q. Using your phrase, it's an independent ridge, what I 12 would ask you to comment on is the fact that in Y7 the 13 feature that is marked is, in relative terms, relatively 14 more distant from point 11 and, in fact, closer to the 15 ridge above than would be the corresponding feature in 16 Ms McKie? 17 A. Well, yes, I can see what you're saying but this is 18 something which happens with all fingerprints. It 19 doesn't look quite to be in the same position on one as 20 it is with the other because of -- I don't know -- 21 variations of pressure, this is taken on -- well, this 22 is taken under good solid conditions, probably in a 23 police station, I don't know, whereas this one's a crime 24 scene mark left by chance inadvertently and, you know, 25 with all the things against it as opposed to this one, page 114 1 so you do see differences. 2 But the point is at that point there there is an 3 independent ridge which is nestling between the two 4 ridges and just above point number 11 marked by SCRO. 5 Q. So, in short, what you say is, because of the different 6 circumstances in which the two impressions are formed, 7 there will be variations in detail but the essential 8 character of the features is the same? 9 A. Correct, yes. 10 Q. That took me through the points I wanted to ask you 11 about in relation to Y7. I now want to turn to QI2. 12 In relation to QI2, first of all, this is not a 13 matter on which you were ever instructed by Ms McKie 14 because it did not form part of your instructions? 15 A. No, it didn't, no. 16 Q. But you did at some stage come, obviously, because you 17 have chartings in relation to QI2. 18 Do you recollect how it came about that you had any 19 involvement in relation to QI2? 20 A. I suppose, strictly speaking, I've had no official -- 21 I've never been instructed in QI2, no. I think it came 22 about really out of interest. I was totally involved of 23 course in Y7 and this one was always there at the time 24 and, for the sake of completeness, I did both and I 25 eventually did the lot -- to include them all in the page 115 1 chart anyway, in the albums. 2 Q. So obviously you took an interest in the matter. You 3 have some chartings and, indeed, you produced to the 4 Scottish Parliament some chartings of QI2. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What I was going to ask you about was the source of the 7 charting and, therefore, the type of image that you 8 actually had. 9 If I bring up TS0004, chart H, this is one of the 10 charts that you used. So far as these images of QI2 are 11 concerned, do you know anything about the source of the 12 images that you have used in this; in other words, do 13 you know where you got them from? 14 A. It's some considerable time ago now. I think they were 15 sent down to me from Scotland. 16 Q. Sorry? 17 A. They were sent down to me from Scotland. Exactly by 18 whom and when I can't tell you. Well, I don't know. I 19 would tell you if I knew but I don't know. 20 Q. That's okay because when it comes ultimately to a study 21 of QI2 there's a question that you raise in your 22 comparative exercise material about the quality of the 23 images -- 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- that the Inquiry has been using. page 116 1 What I was just wondering was what the source was 2 and, therefore, the quality of the image that you have 3 been working from. 4 If I tell you that, at least looking at these 5 images, what I note is the one on the left of QI2, first 6 of all, has a border to it so it looks as if it's a 7 photograph of a photograph. 8 Do you see that, the border around the image? 9 A. Yes, I do, yes. 10 Q. It is in landscape, which I would know is a type of 11 image that Mr Mackenzie used for one of his chartings. 12 Is it possible that is a source, that you have used 13 images that SCRO have used themselves in relation to 14 this matter? 15 A. Well, that's possible, yes. 16 Q. If I show by comparison with that landscape QI2, if I 17 look to your other chart which is chart P (for Peter), 18 so far as P is concerned it seems at least to my naked 19 eye, but I may be wrong, that they are different images? 20 A. Pardon? 21 Q. It looks to my naked eye as if they are different images 22 but I may be wrong. Do you know? 23 A. Well, they've certainly been done at different times. 24 Whether they are different images I don't know. I know 25 at one stage I did have a negative which was sent to me page 117 1 again by whom ... I had this reproduced at the West 2 Yorkshire Police Imaging Unit and they prepared these 3 photographs for me, not the album. Well, they did the 4 album eventually but when I worked with the photos they 5 produced that's where I got them from. 6 Q. When you say you got a negative and then produced an 7 image, is that true of the two QI2 images we have here 8 or is it true of only one of them? Do you know? 9 A. No, I don't know. I don't. 10 Q. You don't know. 11 I do actually notice that perhaps there are some 12 artefacts in the image. I am looking in the top right. 13 There's a bubble feature -- I'll put a blue arrow round 14 it (indicated) -- in the bottom right, a similar sort of 15 feature that, in fact, if one looks closely, is present 16 certainly in this image, I'm not sure in the bottom. So 17 it may be that they derive from the same negative? 18 A. Indeed, yes, possibly. 19 MR MOYNIHAN: What we will do is just save that and then get 20 down to the detail. 21 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.10. 22 MR MOYNIHAN: What I was going to do, Mr Swann, my own notes 23 have in fact been primarily prepared by reference to 24 your chart P (for Peter) because that is the one I 25 seemed to find more references to in your statement but page 118 1 if you prefer to use the other one then just indicate 2 but -- 3 A. No, no -- 4 Q. In that case, if we take down what is currently there 5 and bring up just a fresh clean copy of TS0004, slide 6 17. Sorry, if we bring up just one copy of TS0004.017. 7 Again, Mr Swann, what I did was circulated a list, a 8 table, another table, because I tried to compare your 9 charting with the SCRO charting. On this occasion, it's 10 SCRO FI0166A. 11 Again, before we go too far in the conversation, if 12 you can just tell me if there are any corrections to be 13 made to my list? For some reason, confusingly, I've 14 started on this occasion with your numbers on the left 15 column and SCRO numbers on the right. 16 A. Looking at what homework I did on this: point number 6 17 on mine, you've got number 2, I've ticked that; 7 I've 18 ticked, you have got "10?", I've ticked that; 8, 3 tick; 19 9, 9, tick; 15, well all correct, 15 to 14, then 16, 15. 20 Yes. 21 Q. You have not observed any other points that are in 22 common between your charting and the SCRO charting for 23 QI2? 24 A. No. 25 Q. So the lists which are available to others on this page 119 1 occasion are correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So that assists me greatly because then I know what is 4 common to you and SCRO and where they differ. 5 If I can start then, first of all, do I take it in 6 relation to the quality of the images, because there's a 7 criticism of the quality of the image that the Inquiry 8 had used in the comparative exercise, are you content 9 with the quality of the image that you yourself used as 10 the basis for chart P? 11 A. Yes, indeed, yes. 12 Q. The alternative which I have, and I can show you, also 13 taken at the Inquiry's request from a negative by 14 Dr Bleay at the Home Office, if I show you EA0029, what 15 we have to do is to rotate it anticlockwise. This is an 16 image that we have and I think we have the photographic 17 original for you. (Handed) 18 Just check that marked on the back I think should 19 be, in pencil, is probably marked on the back "normal"? 20 A. Yes, normal colour, yes. 21 Q. Normal? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I am quite happy to use your own original in P, I will 24 also use Dr Bleay's from time to time. 25 Do you have any comment on the quality of the Bleay page 120 1 image that I have just handed you, the photographic 2 form? How do you find the clarity of that image? 3 A. It seemed to have a brown tinge with it to me. I don't 4 know whether that's normal but ... it's okay to work 5 with but I wouldn't change it. 6 Q. You wouldn't change from your own one? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Just while we are on though, when we have been looking 9 at the Dr Bleay one, I have come to realise that the 10 larger photograph does indeed enable one to see a little 11 bit more clearly what is going on in the background and 12 in the vicinity. For example, we have QI2 as broadly -- 13 that's an underestimate. It goes a little bit further 14 to the left. We have QI2 within the blue oval, very 15 roughly? 16 A. Yes. Well, roughly, yes. There's a bit missing on the 17 left. 18 Q. But also on the left we have to be conscious of the fact 19 that there is, would you accept there is a separate 20 mark? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What about the area that I'm indicating (indicated), 23 roughly about the green? Is that the same mark as QI2 24 or a different one? 25 A. Is it what, sorry? page 121 1 Q. The area that I've got in the green oval, is that the 2 same mark or a different one? 3 A. No, they're two different marks, aren't they? 4 Q. A different mark? 5 A. Well, there's this mark, QI2, and -- well, it's all QI2, 6 I presume, and the one with the green ring round. 7 Q. But they appear to be separate fingerprints? 8 A. Yes, indeed, yes. 9 Q. Also the final piece, when I am looking at the overall 10 picture, literally, is that coming through, even in the 11 blue oval areas of smearing, would that be correct, 12 coming from the top down? 13 A. Yes, yes -- smudging, smearing. 14 Q. Is there any significance in the fact that a part -- 15 indeed, perhaps even I might suggest, a large part to 16 the right of the core has superimposed upon it, it would 17 seem, some smudging? 18 A. It's probably the smudging that's superimposed on mark, 19 is it? 20 Q. Sorry, yes. 21 A. Yes, yes. 22 Q. Is that something that one has to be very conscious of 23 when trying to interpret the underlying fingerprint 24 features? 25 A. Oh, yes, indeed, yes. page 122 1 Q. What was your view about, just looking again at the 2 larger picture before we turn to your mark or your chart 3 P, what was your overall conclusion about the clarity of 4 QI2 as an image that would be capable of comparison? 5 A. Well, it's certainly clear enough for comparison 6 purposes. I mean, obviously at a glance you can see 7 quite a number of characteristics. At a glance you can 8 see quite a few ridge characteristics for comparison 9 purposes -- quite a number actually. 10 Q. So it's sufficient clarity for comparison purposes? 11 A. Oh, yes. 12 Q. Even though it's got smudges and other prints in the 13 vicinity? 14 A. Well, often fingerprints do have smudges, yes. 15 MR MOYNIHAN: What we will do is save that particular image, 16 please, of QI2. 17 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.11. 18 MR MOYNIHAN: If I could go back, please, to your chart P 19 (for Peter), TS0004, chart P. In fact, could I have it 20 twice over. 21 I will explain to you, Mr Swann, I put things up 22 twice because it gives me an opportunity to enlarge both 23 the crime scene mark and the fingerprint. 24 Having established what is common between you and 25 SCRO, where I thought we should start is to work through page 123 1 the points in common so that you can explain where you 2 see the particular features and how you interpret them. 3 Then we will look at some, not of the points where you 4 differ from SCRO but rather where you have differed from 5 some of the others like Mr Zeelenberg, Mr Wertheim and 6 Mr Grigg. 7 A. Right. 8 Q. So what I want to do then is to start and I am going to 9 do them, in fact, in the numerical order of SCRO's 10 points but I will convert them for you as well. I am 11 going to start with your point 6, which for SCRO is 12 their point 2. 13 Can you tell me what your interpretation is of your 14 point 6? 15 A. It's a ridge ending up. 16 Q. Why do you describe it as a ridge ending up? As opposed 17 to, if I can be a bit more clear, describing it as a 18 bifurcation? 19 A. Yes, sorry. 20 Q. Can you explain why you describe it as a ridge ending up 21 as opposed to a bifurcation, point number 6? 22 A. Well, it doesn't quite, in my opinion, make contact with 23 the ridge on its right. It's more of a ridge ending to 24 me than a bifurcation, definitely looks like a ridge 25 ending up in the crime scene mark, QI2. Probably the page 124 1 ridge ending up part at the top on the fingerprint form 2 is a little bit closer to the ridge to its right. So 3 it's a bit borderline, shall we say. So certainly I 4 would say a ridge ending. 5 Q. In relation to this, you will know from the comparative 6 exercise material that -- I will come back to this 7 question of a ridge ending up in a moment. We will come 8 back to that later. 9 One of the main points of argument is that in QI2 it 10 is said that the two descending ridges are of equal 11 width; whereas in Marion Ross there is one thick ridge 12 to the right and a thin ridge to the left. 13 Do you see that? 14 A. What, at either side of -- 15 Q. Without wishing to quarrel with your description of a 16 ridge ending, it's easier if I just explain it as a 17 bifurcation. If number 6 was the point of a 18 bifurcation, there would be then two ridges descending 19 or, as they ascend, they form the bifurcation. The one 20 my cursor is on just now to the right (indicated) is a 21 relatively thick ridge? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. The one that is on the left is a relatively thin ridge, 24 yes? 25 A. Thinner than the one on the right, yes. page 125 1 Q. Yes, relative terms, one thinner than the one on the 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Those who say these points do not match say that when 5 one looks at QI2 that there's two descending ridges of 6 equal thickness, whereas in Marion Ross one is 7 relatively thinner or thicker than the other. 8 Do you have any comment, first of all, as a matter 9 of observation, that that difference in thickness is 10 present between the two? As a matter of observation is 11 it present? 12 A. Well, I would agree that the ridge on the left which I 13 have marked at the end of number 6, it is slightly 14 thinner than the ridge on the right, yes. 15 Q. What explanation would you give for that difference in 16 appearance as between QI2 and Marion Ross? 17 A. It may have been a result of the sweat content of that 18 ridge in that area which has not reacted quite as fully 19 with the I believe it was the superglue process that was 20 applied to this particular tin and the development 21 hasn't been quite as strong. Lack of sweat, well, it 22 won't be quite as strong. I don't know what other 23 reason I can give really. 24 Q. I am keen that his Lordship gets a range of view in 25 relation to this. Those who have said it is not the page 126 1 same have said that if it were due to any sort of 2 development process or pressure such is the proximity -- 3 what is suggested is that such is the proximity of these 4 two ridges that, if it were due to difference in 5 pressure or if there were pressure or chemical issues 6 involved, it would be unlikely to impact adversely on 7 one and not the other in such a close proximity. 8 Do you have any comment on that? 9 A. I suppose that's fair comment. It's difficult to give a 10 definite answer. You won't be able to give a definite 11 answer because, I suppose, if you look elsewhere on the 12 mark, you'll probably find similar areas where you've 13 got thick ridges and thin ridges. It happens all the 14 time but it still doesn't detract from the fact that 15 there's certainly definitely a characteristic there, 16 whether it's a thin ridge or a thick ridge or two, one 17 of each. There's certainly a characteristic at the 18 point where they nearly meet or ridge ending. 19 Q. One other -- 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, just -- 21 A. Sorry, there's definitely a ridge characteristic at the 22 point where the thin ridge ends, whether it actually 23 ends there or touches the adjacent ridge and forms a 24 bifurcation. That's -- well, it may or may not. 25 MR MOYNIHAN: One other point I would ask you to comment on page 127 1 is this and, again, it's common to people on both sides 2 of the argument about the identification of QI2: you 3 have on the Marion Ross chart indicated that the 4 ascending thinner ridge ends at the point that you have 5 marked as number 6. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Which is at a point where it's almost close to being a 8 bifurcation with the adjacent ridge. Some have noted 9 that it's possible that that ridge continues further up 10 to a point that I am now going to indicate with a 11 turquoise arrow (indicated), that thin ridge carries on 12 up. 13 A. I can see where you're pointing to, yes. 14 Q. That is obviously in Marion Ross's print where there is 15 a degree more clarity. 16 What is your observation on using a point such as 17 that as a characteristic of sufficient clarity in QI2 18 itself. Do you see it? 19 A. I can see it. I didn't entertain it as a ridge in that 20 respect from a characteristic point of view. I can see 21 the mark you are indicating. I've seen it as well. 22 Maybe it's a small part of an incipient ridge. I don't 23 know. It could be. 24 Q. When you say you can see it, is that you using the 25 Dr Bleay image just now? When you say you can see it, page 128 1 what are you looking at? Are you looking at the 2 Dr Bleay image? 3 A. No, no, I'm looking at my own. 4 Q. I apologise, I didn't know what you were looking at. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: On the copy P, you can see it; is that right? 6 A. On my copy, yes. It's not very strong but it's 7 certainly there but I wouldn't count it as a ridge 8 structure from a characteristic point of view. 9 MR MOYNIHAN: Why not? 10 A. Well, I'm not sure really what it is. I mean it might 11 even be a bit of dirt or something like that on the tin. 12 I don't know. I mean, there's all sorts of things, you 13 know, happen which you have to take into consideration 14 but at the end of the day it's difficult to be sure 15 about any of them sometimes. 16 MR MOYNIHAN: If I can save the image that we have on the 17 screen just now. 18 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.12. 19 MR MOYNIHAN: If on the right-hand side we bring up again a 20 clean image of TS0004.17. 21 I am now going to move on, Mr Swann, to your point 22 number 8, which is similar to the SCRO point number 3, 23 so your 8, their 3. I'll use your numbering. Your 24 point number 8: what characteristic is point number 8? 25 A. It's probably a bifurcation as opposed to a ridge page 129 1 ending. 2 Q. In relation to point number 8, one of my reasons for 3 asking you about this is having observed in the larger 4 image by Dr Bleay, just simply for context, the swipe or 5 smear that is coming from the top into the features of 6 QI2 superimposed over QI2, as you say, your point number 7 8, it would seem, is at the lower end but if one is 8 looking at it left to right, it's central. So the 9 central lower end of that smear. 10 First of all, do you accept that, that it is in the 11 area of the smear? 12 A. At the lower end of it, yes. I wouldn't say it was in 13 the smear because I can see it quite clearly and you can 14 see the two ridges on either side going up. But, yes, 15 there's a smear up there which descends to roughly that 16 point. 17 Q. So are you saying that in that vicinity you can clearly 18 observe the particular feature? 19 A. Clearly observe ...? 20 Q. The particular feature? 21 A. Yes, quite clearly. 22 Q. So if you were analysing QI2 before looking at the 23 Marion Ross, would you have picked out in isolation on 24 QI2 a fingerprint characteristic in that area? 25 A. Well, I think it's very strong. It's a very strong page 130 1 characteristic. It's quite clear. 2 Q. Similarly -- 3 A. The answer is yes, I would, yes. 4 Q. Similarly, point number 9 which is, by coincidence, the 5 same as the SCRO point number 9 -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Point number 9, first of all, the description of that: 8 is that a ridge ending or bifurcation? 9 A. Probably a bifurcation. 10 Q. Again, are you indicating that in QI2 there is, readily 11 observable, a feature in that area? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. We can go back now really from 9, then we will go back 14 to 8. Can you draw on the picture, please, of QI2 the 15 particular characteristic that you see? 16 A. At number 8? 17 Q. It's the same question for 8 and 9 so do them in the 18 order that is most convenient for you. On QI2 if you 19 can simply draw the features, 8 and 9, just draw on 20 there the features that you observe. 21 A. You want a line drawing over the actual ridge? 22 Q. Yes, please. 23 A. (Pause) Is that sufficient? (Indicated) 24 Q. Again, what you have told me is that one or both of them 25 are possible bifurcations so, therefore, one is looking page 131 1 for two ridges. 2 A. Oh, right. 3 Q. Again, do not let me mislead you. Just be satisfied 4 that 8 and 9 are indeed bifurcations that one is looking 5 for, two ridges. 6 A. (Pause) Is that okay? (Indicated) 7 MR MOYNIHAN: That's fine, thank you very much. 8 Can we save that, please? 9 MISS BAHRAMI: That's saved as FI2110.13. 10 MR MOYNIHAN: It may be worth, sir, just completing this 11 particular part if there is time to look at the common 12 points, complete the common points for Mr Swann. They 13 are points 15 and 16 so if I could bring up again on the 14 left a fresh copy of TS0004.17. 15 I think we get the picture. The numbers are so 16 close to the edge it is actually quite difficult to 17 enlarge them. The 'teens are on the left-hand edge so I 18 am looking at points 15 and 16. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Again, let us take them in numerical order, your 21 description of point 15 would be what? 22 A. That's a ridge ending. 23 Q. And number 16? 24 A. A bifurcation. 25 Q. In fact, have you used in your own charting a black spot page 132 1 to highlight the location of these features? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So you are satisfied in relation to the location of 4 point number 15 that the black spot marks the end of a 5 ridge that descends from there? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. So far as point number 16 is concerned -- and this will 8 be a suitable point, perhaps, to end for today and will 9 indicate to you how much more I have to go -- point 10 number 16, can you mark for me, because it is a 11 bifurcation, just the two limbs of that bifurcation? 12 A. (Pause) Is that all right? (Indicated) 13 MR MOYNIHAN: Again, if you are satisfied with that as the 14 representation of the ridges then that is sufficient for 15 my purposes. 16 If I can indicate to you, so that others can see 17 where we're going for tomorrow, in relation to QI2 we 18 will come to -- first of all, we should save this image, 19 just in case. 20 MISS BAHRAMI: That's FI2110.14. 21 MR MOYNIHAN: I have two particular points that I will take 22 up with you tomorrow in relation to QI2. Firstly, in 23 relation to your points 12, 13 and 14, you have an 24 observation in the comparative charting about the 25 clarity in the adjacent area used by the Scottish page 133 1 Criminal Record Office for their points 11 to 13. So 2 SCRO 11 to 13 and your points 12, 13 and 14, now they 3 are not the same points -- 4 A. No they're not. 5 MR MOYNIHAN: -- they're just in the area. What I want to 6 do is discuss with you whether, if there be a problem of 7 clarity in the area of SCRO 11 to 13, if that lack of 8 clarity is also present in the areas that you have as 9 12, 13 and 14. So that is the first point. 10 The second point I want to ask you about moves away 11 from Scottish Criminal Record Office and moves into an 12 area that you have picked up yourself as an area of 13 dispute between you on the one hand and Mr Wertheim, for 14 example, and Mr Grigg on the other and it concerns your 15 points 1, 2, 3, 4 and 10. Those are the points 16 immediately above the core. So those are the points I 17 want to discuss with you tomorrow morning: 12, 13, 14 18 taken as one group; 1, 2, 3, 4 and 10 taken as a second 19 group. That ought to complete QI2. I don't then have 20 too many more questions beyond that. 21 Sir, this would be an appropriate point to adjourn. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: If it would not be an inconvenience, I 23 wonder, if you were given a clean copy, could you mark 24 the Y7 comparisons? You know, the chart, this document, 25 where there was some difference. It's very useful to me page 134 1 because I can then follow, when we're talking about your 2 point 4 I can see whether Scottish Criminal Record 3 Office, there is their point 6 and so on. So if we give 4 you a clean copy maybe at your convenience -- 5 A. Certainly, I'll bring it tomorrow. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: -- you would do that for me, please. Thank 7 you very much. 8 We will sit then at 10.00 tomorrow. 9 (4.05 pm) 10 (Adjourned until 10.00 am the following morning) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25